Russia, who will still visit

Old Aug 12th, 2008, 03:42 AM
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Russia, who will still visit

After yet another bully-boy action who will still visit Russia?
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 03:53 AM
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Would still love to go, but don't think it will happen any time soon.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 03:54 AM
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Sorry to burst your bublle, bilbo
I will still visit, and enjoy Russia as much as I did before if not more.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:01 AM
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It is still on my list of places to visit.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:10 AM
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I recall a cartoon in my world history text showing Russia as an octopus trying to grab land from it's neighbors. The cartoon was from the mid-1800's.

Sometimes the more things change the more they stay the same.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:30 AM
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The quality of the political analysis on this forum is almost as good as the quality of the economic analysis.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:36 AM
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Interesting question. I have noted a big upsurge in posts about Russia recently. Hardly anything when I was planning a trip earlier this year - now it seems to be the latest "must go" destination for Americans - albeit on guided tours with the usual "is it safe" questions. Pathetic really.

Russia is being a bully boy. And has anyone else noticed the similarity between the takeover they've launched against Georgia while the world was focussed on the Olympics Opening, and their invasion of Afghanistan on Christmas Eve in 1979?

To answer your question - no I wouldn't go now - not because I fear for my safety but because I object to their actions. But I am very very glad that I finally made it there earlier this year after 20 years of wanting, cos I foresee a worsening of relations between Russia and the "West" from here on in.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:51 AM
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This 'bully-boy action' would be the US immediately deciding it knows who's in the right and threatening to invade ?
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 04:52 AM
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Sorry, I should of course have said "the US government".
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:05 AM
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I asked this question in the lounge because I'm confused. Isn't Georgia the bully? Didn't they start it? They were trying to take back people who had broken away somewhere in the 90's?
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:19 AM
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afterall wrote: "And has anyone else noticed the similarity between the takeover they've launched against Georgia while the world was focussed on the Olympics Opening, and their invasion of Afghanistan on Christmas Eve in 1979?"

Are you referring to the Russians taking on the mujahideen insurgency, which was supported by the US? The insurgency that led to the installation of the Taliban regime? The Taliban regime that provided a refuge for the Al Qaida movement? The Al Qaida movement that...

Yeah, similar.

What was I saying about political analysis on this forum?
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:25 AM
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This 'bully-boy action' would be the US immediately deciding it knows who's in the right and threatening to invade ?

Since when did the US threaten to invade? I realize that making things up is often more fun than bothering with reality, but let's not get carried away.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:48 AM
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Isn't Georgia the bully? Didn't they start it? They were trying to take back people who had broken away somewhere in the 90's?

It depends whether you are gullible or not, or whether you prefer to view events out of context. South Ossetia is only the immediate issue. But, these events need to be considered against the backdrop of the history of Russian intervention in the region. And they need to be viewed as part of Russia's increasing belligerence toward their more Westward-leaning neighbors.

If Georgia were the only place where Russia was rattling its sabers, then I would be inclined to think Georgia's actions (some of which have been questionable) might rise to a level requiring Russian intervention. But, Russia has recently tried to bully the Ukraine due to their increasing outreach to the West, and has been using their petro-power to reward compliant regimes like Belarus. Anyone who thinks that Russia's actions are about protecting South Ossetians is, frankly, an idiot.

This is an interesting Op-ed from someone with significantly more knowledge of the area than anybody posting here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/12/op...12cornell.html
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:52 AM
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cd,
This conflict isnt as easy as one side or the other started it. Georgia has a soveriegn territory that is agreed to by Russia. However, there are seperatists in Georgia(abkhazaia and S Ossetia) that want autonomy and pledge to Russia and even keep Russian Passports. They feel they are more Russian citizens than Georgia, but Georgia doesnt want them to cede so Georgia has used force on them in the past. In response Russia has defended them and even sent in peace keepers.
This latest conflicted started(by the best source I have), when Georgia attacked the Russian peacekeepers in S Ossetia provoking this latest Russian response. The invasion would be billed as a Russian aggression during the olympics by western countries trying to save the Georgia so called 'democracy'. Georgia must feel that endangering their population to this response was worth the propaganda of the invasion.


Both sides are wrong, but Georgia provoked the more powerful Russians to invade. Funny Americans dont hear about the other seperatists(abkhazia) that applaud the invasion as saving them FROM the aggressive Georgians..

Its all a propaganda war for the key Caspian Sea Oil Pipeline. The Georgian government has prostituted themselves for this, and Russia clearly wants this interest and will undermine the Georgians for it. Its a powerplay by several parties, and its foolish for some Fodorites to use this as a reason to convince others not to travel to Russia.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:58 AM
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"Since when did the US threaten to invade?"

Dick Cheney saying this action will not go unpunished is a very thinly veiled threat.

FrankS, a good summary - I'd just like to add that the *majority* of South Ossetians have Russian passports and Russia intervened to protect its own citizens.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 05:58 AM
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Typo - "unanswered" - amounts to the same thing.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 06:05 AM
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"Both sides are wrong"

Best analysis yet...
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 06:06 AM
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That's quite a leap from "will not go unpunished" to "threaten to invade." I think Padraig got it right in his 8:30 am post.
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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 06:17 AM
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"Since when did the US threaten to invade?"

"Dick Cheney saying this action will not go unpunished is a very thinly veiled threat."

Truly an ultra-pessimistic view: unpunished can encompass an entire spectrum of alternatives, only the most extreme of which is invasion.
Think exclusion from the G-8; think delayed admission to WTO; think.


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Old Aug 12th, 2008, 06:51 AM
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I see it this way

Georgia has been trying to get out from under with Russia.

Russia set up Georgia but inadvertently left two mini-states in Georgia.

Georgia has tried to win a bit of freedom by laying oil pipe lines through its country

A wealthy Russia is now trying to pull georgia back into the fold which includes the oil pipeline. As a tool it issued passports to the two statelets.

So far so good

Georgia tried to join Nato and Nato backed down from a fight (thank god). So Georgia has tried to push Nato and Russia to fight which if there is a brain cell in the white house (oh my god)....

So basically georgia over played its hand. However that does not mean Russia is not being a killin' Bully.

I for one say no to playing along and will not be visiting
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