Russia, who will still visit

Old Aug 20th, 2008, 07:40 AM
  #81  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
but it annoys me when people (and more importantly the US govt) immediately assume that Russia is the bad guy and start making threatening noises. They have evidently convinced a lot of their citizens that this one-sided view is correct.

And it annoys me when people with seemingly little knowledge of the history or politics of the region want to make a martyr of the Russians, simply because they want another excuse to attack American foreign policy.

In the spirit of your silly post, how about some more "facts"?

1) The US never threatened to invade, despite your previous claims.

2) Condi seems to have done a pretty good job of getting the Georgians to back down, again counter to your claims that this was all about US sabre-rattling.

3) The Russians, even after a ceasefire had been settled, made no promises about when they would actually pull out of Georgian (not even South Ossetian) territory.

The Georgians have been more than a bit stupid to think that they can flip their noses at the Russians, but it takes a special kind of naivety to think that the Russians are willing to let Georgia (or Ukraine or Belarus) live their lives without intrusion. This fight was coming, and I don't see the point in debating whether Georgia moved up the date of the fight by a few months or years. Russia is the neighborhood bully, intent on exerting influence over its neighbors, and it is patently ridiculous to claim otherwise.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:14 AM
  #82  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The moment the US troops go home where they belong and don't show up with their aircarft carriers in every remote place of the world, where nobody wants them, I would consider calling Russia a bully, instead of the other far!! bigger bully.

The Russians left, the US is still here, using their infrastructure in foreign countries to attack yet other foreign countries. (Irak).
Killing innocent people.
logos999 is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:17 AM
  #83  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,060
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The words Monroe and Doctrine suggest themselves.

Josser is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:22 AM
  #84  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 10,334
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"Russia is the neighborhood bully, intent on exerting influence over its neighbors, and it is patently ridiculous to claim otherwise."

Everyone knows that, but it is also clear that the Georgians poked that neighbourhood bully into a big ole fight.

J_R_Hartley is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:28 AM
  #85  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I would consider calling Russia a bully, instead of the other far!! bigger bully.

Another relativist without any understanding of history or international relations theory or practice. I am not faulting Russia for what it is doing, I am only faulting the silly way some have tried to turn a centuries-old spat between Georgia and the traditional regional hegemon into a referendum on US foreign policy. I am more than comfortable in stating that, even if the US did not exist, Russia would still be trying to exert their influence in Georgia and the other former Soviet states.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:33 AM
  #86  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Everyone knows that, but it is also clear that the Georgians poked that neighbourhood bully into a big ole fight.

I don't think it is clear to everyone. Some on this thread have clearly glossed over Russian culpability or tried to turn this into a question of US foreign policy. Not disagreeing with the idea that Georgia poked the bear, but poking the bear does not mean that the bear is blameless (for those trying to assign blame). Suggesting otherwise, as has been done here, is (take your pick) misinformed, stupid, or pure fantasy.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:39 AM
  #87  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
>Russia would still be trying to exert their influence
Russia may be trying, but the US constantly and for a long time now is DOING the exact same thing.

Why would you blame Russia doing "just a little bit" of the same thing uncle sam does for decades now.

>The words Monroe and Doctrine suggest themselves.
logos999 is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:50 AM
  #88  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I will never spend my money in a country that is in complete opposition to the U.S. I know my country is not perfect, but I don't want to contribute to a nation that opposes everything I believe in. These nations include China and Russia.
mnapoli is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 08:55 AM
  #89  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Russia may be trying, but the US constantly and for a long time now is DOING the exact same thing.

Why would you blame Russia doing "just a little bit" of the same thing uncle sam does for decades now.


I don't blame either the US or Russia. Foreign policy isn't some fantasy-land of "I'd like to teach the world to sing" for the big boys like the US or Russia. I'm not blaming Russia, per se, just saying that this dust-up was inevitable, given Russia's perception (perhaps rightly) that control/influence over Georgia is critical to their national interest.

These are the decisions the big boys have to make, and I accept it. And any big boy would usually make the same decisions. It is only smaller states, with little real foreign policy clout and security largely guaranteed by a hegemon that have the luxury of whining about the messy business of international relations.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 09:03 AM
  #90  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So a small state should look for hegemony with one bully to pretect itself against another bully...

A bully is a bully.
logos999 is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 09:18 AM
  #91  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
So a small state should look for hegemony with one bully to pretect itself against another bully...

A bully is a bully.


And their other options are? You are trying to assign morality to an amoral space. I know that some people like to think that there is some "other way", but that is nothing but poppycock. It is about power.

I mean, think it through logically. Who else will protect you from the local bully? To invest enough power in a state or actor to stand against that bully REQUIRES that actor do what they must to retain that power. Eventually, that retention of power will lead to somebody calling them a bully.

In other words, don't be upset at the US (or Russia), just because Germany (or France or the EU) aren't strong enough, to protect their own foreign policy interests. And, even if Germany (or France or the EU) actually were strong enough to protect their own interests, there actions would certainly be no more virtuous than America's or Russia's.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 09:31 AM
  #92  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
>And their other options are?
No more than 10 nuclear missiles are enough to protect the "own" interests.

The bullies don't like that and they shy away. No state would attack France today.

An oversized army is only good for a bully and only as long as the bully manages to control the small country by threats.

So lets buy missiles everyone.....
logos999 is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 06:45 PM
  #93  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 25,800
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
No more than 10 nuclear missiles are enough to protect the "own" interests.

The bullies don't like that and they shy away. No state would attack France today.


You have two problems with your "theory". France's interest do not stop at her borders. And, for nuclear missiles to be a credible threat, people have to believe you will use them. I'm not convinced anybody has that kind of will, except under the most extreme circumstances. Finally, your proposal can't come to pass. It is in the interest of France, the US, etal., to ensure that no more states become nuclear, and they will do much to ensure that doesn't happen.
travelgourmet is offline  
Old Aug 20th, 2008, 07:49 PM
  #94  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
TravelGourmet -

You didn't hear the Russian General's pronouncement replayed on televison in full uniform and medals who said he was going to nuke Poland for agreeing to star wars placements ?

That's the trouble with their toys - they can fall into the wrong lunatic hands with a finger on the button - then the immediate neighborhood is fried and the rest of the world dies slow cancer deaths of various varieties.

So much for some morons ideas that everyone should have nukes.
Mahya2 is offline  
Old Aug 22nd, 2008, 01:06 PM
  #95  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,017
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
All righty RIGHT.

You actually believe when we "liberal west Europeans" don't judge "the Americans" by what US the government is doing, we don't demand the "American Right supporters" to do the same when Russians are concerned.

Big mistake. You want to be treated well in Europe, you'd better "treat" any other nationalities well too!

And just a little education does help to understand the world how it is today..

logos999 is offline  
Old Aug 22nd, 2008, 01:23 PM
  #96  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 24,128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Sorry, no time to read all the posts but didn't Georgia annex that particular section first, it split off after USSR crumbled, and then try to re-take it when Russia intervened?
Wish I knew more about history. And, doesn't BP have some oil interests...?
TDudette is online now  
Related Topics
Thread
Original Poster
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Annaputina64
Europe
6
Mar 1st, 2017 07:44 AM
MichiganDebi
Europe
5
Aug 28th, 2015 11:36 AM
FireDragonII
Europe
4
Nov 16th, 2007 03:06 AM
sfvmatt
Europe
6
Apr 24th, 2006 07:16 AM
Norma
Europe
28
Dec 7th, 2002 10:44 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Do Not Sell My Personal Information