No tipping necessary in France? Is that really true?
Mar 4th, 2005, 11:09 PM
#41
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>>I myself think that anyone of any nationality is cheap if they don't tip at all.<<
This takes the cake for one of the most insufferably arrogant posts I've read for some time. The writer is unwittingly adding support to Tallulah's view that many Americans carry their tipping culture with them, and appears to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there are cultures where things are done quite differently to the way they're done in the USA.
As distressing as this may be to opaldog, in such cultures it is not considered "cheap" to decline to make a cash donation to a worker who is doing their job well (a minimum condition of employment in any well-run organisation, surely) and being reasonably recompensed by their employer for doing so. If it were otherwise, why wouldn't you tip the clerk in the post office, or the shop assistant in a department store, or the person who sells you a bus ticket?
I sometimes wonder whether people who defend tipping in foreign countries with evangelistic fervour see it as a class marker - a means of emphasising their own perceived place in the pecking order vis a vis members of the servant class.
Anyway, Tallulah, I can set your mind at ease as regards Australia at least: waiting and bar staff, chambermaids et al. here all receive a living wage. Accordingly, while a modest tip may be appropriate in cases where you would like to show appreciation for someone who's gone above and beyond the call of duty, it is NOT expected.
The same goes for the last three countries I've visited - New Zealand, Vietnam and China. In fact the Chinese regard tipping as tantamount to distributing free money, and as such highly peculiar behaviour. Ordinary restaurant staff who are tipped have been known to chase the customer down the street to return what they assume to be forgotten change.
This takes the cake for one of the most insufferably arrogant posts I've read for some time. The writer is unwittingly adding support to Tallulah's view that many Americans carry their tipping culture with them, and appears to be blissfully ignorant of the fact that there are cultures where things are done quite differently to the way they're done in the USA.
As distressing as this may be to opaldog, in such cultures it is not considered "cheap" to decline to make a cash donation to a worker who is doing their job well (a minimum condition of employment in any well-run organisation, surely) and being reasonably recompensed by their employer for doing so. If it were otherwise, why wouldn't you tip the clerk in the post office, or the shop assistant in a department store, or the person who sells you a bus ticket?
I sometimes wonder whether people who defend tipping in foreign countries with evangelistic fervour see it as a class marker - a means of emphasising their own perceived place in the pecking order vis a vis members of the servant class.
Anyway, Tallulah, I can set your mind at ease as regards Australia at least: waiting and bar staff, chambermaids et al. here all receive a living wage. Accordingly, while a modest tip may be appropriate in cases where you would like to show appreciation for someone who's gone above and beyond the call of duty, it is NOT expected.
The same goes for the last three countries I've visited - New Zealand, Vietnam and China. In fact the Chinese regard tipping as tantamount to distributing free money, and as such highly peculiar behaviour. Ordinary restaurant staff who are tipped have been known to chase the customer down the street to return what they assume to be forgotten change.
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:13 AM
#43
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In response to Neil: perceiving tipping as a "class Marker" a means of emphasizing their own place in the pecking order; as a former long time waitress and now member of the pink collar class, I guess I could perceive myself as an equal in the pecking order of workers. I'm sure your opinions are correct in your experience, but I don't happen to share them. In countries where servers are paid a small minimum wage and depend on tips, it is part of the cost of eatin out. If that "custom" is carried with one to other countries, then so be it. I don't view it from a psychological stand point. Maybe I just feel that the server either deserves it or earned it.
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:13 AM
#44
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It is not necessary to tip in France. The locals don't do it, so why should tourists. For cabs it is easier to round up the fair, for hotels, leave an evelope on the table for the chambermaid at the end of your stay and tip a concierge if he/she has helped out enormously.
I have often travelled to Paris and notice locals don't tip or they round up the bill.
In the US, it has gone crazy with tipping. A waiter in a restaurant in New York chased us down the street yelling at us that the tip was not sufficient. The service was terrible and the food was awful. Go figure.
I have often travelled to Paris and notice locals don't tip or they round up the bill.
In the US, it has gone crazy with tipping. A waiter in a restaurant in New York chased us down the street yelling at us that the tip was not sufficient. The service was terrible and the food was awful. Go figure.
Mar 5th, 2005, 03:37 AM
#45
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"I myself think that anyone of any nationality is cheap if they don't tip at all"
Neal Oz already made a point here.
Americans tip because it is customary in their culture. In most European countries, it is customary that people are paid a wage that they can live on.
A recent Unicef survey showed that in the USA 1 in 5 children live in poverty. And this in a country where everyone is so generous in giving away money??
Neal Oz already made a point here.
Americans tip because it is customary in their culture. In most European countries, it is customary that people are paid a wage that they can live on.
A recent Unicef survey showed that in the USA 1 in 5 children live in poverty. And this in a country where everyone is so generous in giving away money??
Mar 5th, 2005, 04:16 AM
#46
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This thread has went from is tipping necessary in france to "in the USA 1 in 5 children live in poverty. And this in a country where everyone is so generous in giving away money" Gratuities are not
mandatory in the USA or Europe, why is it so hard to understand? If you like the service you got and you can afford it and its something you want to do, leave a tip, but its certainly not required. if you don't leave a tip in the USA will they call the police?
mandatory in the USA or Europe, why is it so hard to understand? If you like the service you got and you can afford it and its something you want to do, leave a tip, but its certainly not required. if you don't leave a tip in the USA will they call the police?
Mar 5th, 2005, 08:39 AM
#47
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Jeff,
There's a big difference. In the U.S., we know that waiters and waitresses depend on tips because their base pay is so low.
In France -- I don't know about the rest of Europe -- the 15% tip is included in the bill. So people don't leave at tip except when the service is really extraordinary.
There's a big difference. In the U.S., we know that waiters and waitresses depend on tips because their base pay is so low.
In France -- I don't know about the rest of Europe -- the 15% tip is included in the bill. So people don't leave at tip except when the service is really extraordinary.
Mar 5th, 2005, 08:56 AM
#48
Another problem about tipping in the USA-some restaurants, the waiters split their tips. If you have a bad waiter, everyone suffers.
Also, some coatrooms are consessions and the checkroom person doesn't get to keep the tips.
Also, some coatrooms are consessions and the checkroom person doesn't get to keep the tips.
Mar 5th, 2005, 10:49 AM
#49
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Ken,
The 15 percent service charge is added to the bill in the overwhelming majority of cases. But if dad is the chef and mom is the hostess and headwaiter and son or daughther is waiter No. 2 it may not be. In modest restaurants I always study the bill, and if theres no 15 percent line, I ask. And as I mentioned earlier, there are reports, I've had them from waiters we lodged, that not all Paris servers get the whole 15 percent, an illegality more likely in restaurants with student-age servers, I'll bet. True, it's not your fault, nd how would you know? But when we leave an extra 3 to 5 percent, we're darned sure they're getting that.
The 15 percent service charge is added to the bill in the overwhelming majority of cases. But if dad is the chef and mom is the hostess and headwaiter and son or daughther is waiter No. 2 it may not be. In modest restaurants I always study the bill, and if theres no 15 percent line, I ask. And as I mentioned earlier, there are reports, I've had them from waiters we lodged, that not all Paris servers get the whole 15 percent, an illegality more likely in restaurants with student-age servers, I'll bet. True, it's not your fault, nd how would you know? But when we leave an extra 3 to 5 percent, we're darned sure they're getting that.
Mar 5th, 2005, 10:55 AM
#50
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Re tips and service charge,
I recall reading that in the UK the courts have ruled that any additional tip added to a credit card charge belongs to the owner. Only tips left on the table belong to the server (maybe).
I believe that this is also true in other EU countries.
I recall reading that in the UK the courts have ruled that any additional tip added to a credit card charge belongs to the owner. Only tips left on the table belong to the server (maybe).
I believe that this is also true in other EU countries.
Mar 5th, 2005, 11:04 AM
#51
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Ira,
Good point. But we don't do the extra tip with the credit card, we do it with coin! We also lurk about, in cases where a bit of the service has been been provided by another waiter, to be sure the waiter we want to reward gets the coin.
Good point. But we don't do the extra tip with the credit card, we do it with coin! We also lurk about, in cases where a bit of the service has been been provided by another waiter, to be sure the waiter we want to reward gets the coin.
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:14 PM
#52
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"In countries where servers are paid a small minimum wage and depend on tips, it is part of the cost of eatin out. If that "custom" is carried with one to other countries, then so be it."
opaldog, opaldog. Now that you've explicitly confirmed that you're in favour of exporting your customs to countries which neither want nor need them - my own included - my impression of an arrogant disregard for your host countries' customs is confirmed. (While we're about it, maybe if you talk louder they'll understand English.)
Tell you what - let's adopt your position, but put the shoe on the other foot. How about, when next we visit the United States, I and my wife (also a former waitress) carry our own national customs across the Pacific and refuse to tip? After all, it's not our fault if American employers don't pay their staff properly, is it? And a lot of those people don't deserve a tip anyway. Why can't they learn to do things the Australian way? Yes, I know we could recognise local customs and the reasons behind them, and adapt ourselves to the culture of our host country, but why bother?
opaldog, opaldog. Now that you've explicitly confirmed that you're in favour of exporting your customs to countries which neither want nor need them - my own included - my impression of an arrogant disregard for your host countries' customs is confirmed. (While we're about it, maybe if you talk louder they'll understand English.)
Tell you what - let's adopt your position, but put the shoe on the other foot. How about, when next we visit the United States, I and my wife (also a former waitress) carry our own national customs across the Pacific and refuse to tip? After all, it's not our fault if American employers don't pay their staff properly, is it? And a lot of those people don't deserve a tip anyway. Why can't they learn to do things the Australian way? Yes, I know we could recognise local customs and the reasons behind them, and adapt ourselves to the culture of our host country, but why bother?
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:42 PM
#53
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I've never been in a restaurant in France that didn't include the 15 pct service charge. I think they are required to state if it is included on the menu (carte) or posted somewhere. I actually thought it was required by law to be included, although I know it must be hard to regulate that if some small place doesn't add it (and I would suspect they do that to make their prices look better in comparison, rather questionable).
DaveinParis, I know I just order and pay on rather auto-pilot now, so maybe I am just oblivious, but I didn't think restaurants added the service charge on a separate line marked that way. I could have sworn it is always just included in the price and you won't see a separate line. Perhaps there are some exceptions, but I don't recall ever seeing it itemized.
DaveinParis, I know I just order and pay on rather auto-pilot now, so maybe I am just oblivious, but I didn't think restaurants added the service charge on a separate line marked that way. I could have sworn it is always just included in the price and you won't see a separate line. Perhaps there are some exceptions, but I don't recall ever seeing it itemized.
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:45 PM
#54
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Actually the "tipping is cultual arrogance" group and the "tipping is required for wait-staff t survive" camp are both right. It really is the case in the US that a waitress earns about $10/hour less in wages than is required to remain above starvation income levels so it is sincere wish to help rather than arrogance that causes Americans to leave tips. In Europe and Eastern Europe, the custom is that tips are often included in the price. Wages in a cafe and restaurant are typically closer the sustainable income levels. In the countries I have the most experience, such as Ruissia, a waitress earns a tolerable income in comparison to costs of living, typically twice that of a doctor or school teacher.
The obvious answer if simple, rather than create a war of words and slams, the original questioner did the right thing, ask and learn what is the custom and community standard for an area. It is nt cultural arrgance, it is cultural ignorance but good questions and good answers solve that problem is short order.
Stan
The obvious answer if simple, rather than create a war of words and slams, the original questioner did the right thing, ask and learn what is the custom and community standard for an area. It is nt cultural arrgance, it is cultural ignorance but good questions and good answers solve that problem is short order.
Stan
Mar 5th, 2005, 01:53 PM
#55
Good point, Stan.
We've encountered a few places where it said service not included but that was very rare. I asked the owner who was sitting with us after dinnerat one plave where our server said service was not complete.
He said it's the law and that the waiter may have misunderstood.
We've encountered a few places where it said service not included but that was very rare. I asked the owner who was sitting with us after dinnerat one plave where our server said service was not complete.
He said it's the law and that the waiter may have misunderstood.
Mar 5th, 2005, 02:13 PM
#56
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In France, I have never seen a separate line for 'service charge' or a % indicated on the bill or receipt. It is usually mentioned somewhere on the menu. If your dinner comes to 75€, then part of the 75€ went to the s.c. You can leave it at that, drop another couple €, or round up to 80€ for very good service.
Mar 5th, 2005, 05:34 PM
#57
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Happy to leave it there, stanj - needless to say I wasn't accusing Americans en masse of arrogance - I just felt my hackles rise when a poster opined that anyone, anywhere, who doesn't tip is a cheapskate. Charitably that could be described as simple ignorance, I guess, but only the first time around.
So I guess the consensus here is that you don't have to worry to much about tipping in France (or perhaps further afield), as the decision is usually taken out of your hands by the imposition of a service charge.
So I guess the consensus here is that you don't have to worry to much about tipping in France (or perhaps further afield), as the decision is usually taken out of your hands by the imposition of a service charge.
Mar 7th, 2005, 06:46 AM
#58
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Neil of OZ who accuses people he really has no knowledge of of being ignorant and in the category of if I speak louder I will be understood is getting a bit out of sorts over this whole tipping thing. If I choose to tip over the 15%, then so be it. If he chooses not to that is his choice. I just returned from Paris and observed the majority of diners (mostly French)leaving a tip, even when having coffee at a table. Me thinks he doth protest way too much.
