Morocco, Portugal, Spain itinerary help
Sep 16th, 2010, 09:19 AM
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Morocco, Portugal, Spain itinerary help
Hello Fodorites,
After finalizing our itinerary to New Zealand this winter, I am in the early planning stages of planning a trip to Morocco and Spain for next June. About 5 years ago, we went to Barcelona (side tripped to montserrat), San Sebastian, Madrid (side tripped to Toledo), Seville, Cordoba, and Granda. This time around, I am think we will spend about 5 days in Marrakesh, fly to Lisbon, and then travel by train to Salamanca and then Santiago de Compostela. Is this reasonable on a 14-16 day trip? Since we will be flying from Morocco to Lisbon, we'd like to avoid another flight during the trip, and would prefer to do the rest of the trip by train. Would it make more sense to skip Spain altogether since we've seen the highlights, and spend more time in Portugal? Help! Also, some background on us: recently retired, late-40s/early 50s couple, no kids coming on this trip (God bless summer camps) who enjoy laid back locales, gret food, wine, scenery, and a mix of small towns and big cities. We also love the outdoors- hiking, biking, swimming, fishing, and the like. Thanks!
After finalizing our itinerary to New Zealand this winter, I am in the early planning stages of planning a trip to Morocco and Spain for next June. About 5 years ago, we went to Barcelona (side tripped to montserrat), San Sebastian, Madrid (side tripped to Toledo), Seville, Cordoba, and Granda. This time around, I am think we will spend about 5 days in Marrakesh, fly to Lisbon, and then travel by train to Salamanca and then Santiago de Compostela. Is this reasonable on a 14-16 day trip? Since we will be flying from Morocco to Lisbon, we'd like to avoid another flight during the trip, and would prefer to do the rest of the trip by train. Would it make more sense to skip Spain altogether since we've seen the highlights, and spend more time in Portugal? Help! Also, some background on us: recently retired, late-40s/early 50s couple, no kids coming on this trip (God bless summer camps) who enjoy laid back locales, gret food, wine, scenery, and a mix of small towns and big cities. We also love the outdoors- hiking, biking, swimming, fishing, and the like. Thanks!
Sep 16th, 2010, 11:27 AM
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If you are flying and leaving from Lisbon then it's possible to buy package to Morocco from there. For samples see http://www.logitravel.pt/viagem-medi...s-2124067.html. Portugal (Lisbon, vicinity and north) is definitely worth at least a week even without going to the South. See sample itinerary http://www.portugal.com/travel/portu...sbon_villages/
Sep 16th, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Hi, kayaklady,
With 9-11 days for Lisbon, Salamanca and Santiago, you would be able to visit all three places, but may find that you spend more time traveling than you like. Lisbon to Salamanca on the train will require an overnight train to Madrid and then another train to Salamanca. From Salamanca to Santiago will require a train change, as will Santiago back to Lisbon.
If you like the outdoors, there are plenty of nice outdoor spots in Portugal north of Lisbon. The peneda Geres national park and the mountains around Lousa are two of my favorites (I have a couple of trip reports posted on short trips I took there). Porto and the Douro Valley are also stunning (and I have a trip report for that area as well).
I think there's lots of information on this board about northern Portugal (there are wonderful cities -- Viana do Castelo, Guimaraes, Ponte de Lima, Braga, just to mention a couple of really special ones).
There are direct buses from Lisbon to Santiago de Compostela (I have taken one), and buses back as well. I think the bus is easier than the train (no changes), but it's a long boring bus ride.
So I think you should consider either a Lisbon-Porto-northern Portugal trip, or add on Santiago and drop some of the Portugal destinations.
Salamanca is beautiful, and if that's a high priority, I'd center the trip on the Spanish cities of Salamanca, Zamora, Leon, maybe Oviedo.
Hope this helps, there are lots of regular posters who have traveled extensively in Portugal and we are always delighted to help others figure out how best to see this wonderful country. Laurie
With 9-11 days for Lisbon, Salamanca and Santiago, you would be able to visit all three places, but may find that you spend more time traveling than you like. Lisbon to Salamanca on the train will require an overnight train to Madrid and then another train to Salamanca. From Salamanca to Santiago will require a train change, as will Santiago back to Lisbon.
If you like the outdoors, there are plenty of nice outdoor spots in Portugal north of Lisbon. The peneda Geres national park and the mountains around Lousa are two of my favorites (I have a couple of trip reports posted on short trips I took there). Porto and the Douro Valley are also stunning (and I have a trip report for that area as well).
I think there's lots of information on this board about northern Portugal (there are wonderful cities -- Viana do Castelo, Guimaraes, Ponte de Lima, Braga, just to mention a couple of really special ones).
There are direct buses from Lisbon to Santiago de Compostela (I have taken one), and buses back as well. I think the bus is easier than the train (no changes), but it's a long boring bus ride.
So I think you should consider either a Lisbon-Porto-northern Portugal trip, or add on Santiago and drop some of the Portugal destinations.
Salamanca is beautiful, and if that's a high priority, I'd center the trip on the Spanish cities of Salamanca, Zamora, Leon, maybe Oviedo.
Hope this helps, there are lots of regular posters who have traveled extensively in Portugal and we are always delighted to help others figure out how best to see this wonderful country. Laurie
Sep 17th, 2010, 07:33 AM
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Robert- I wish we had the money to spend months in one country, but with limited time and funding, sometimes the highlights is all we can squeeze in. But I am not complaining!
Wow, Laurie- after reviewing your report on the Peneda Geres National Park, that is definitely being added to the list! I think Prto and the Duro Valley will be as well. Have you spent time in the Beira Litoral region?
I also have printed out a copy of your post on a 1-2 day walking tour in Lisbon-great stuff! That's why I love this site!
With all of the amazing places in Portugal that I keep adding to our list, the fact that we have spent a few weeks in Spain and have never been to Portugal, and the long travel times you mentioned, we are thinking of re-working this to be a Marrakesh-Portgual trip with a possible two day trip to Galicia in Spain. Is a two day trip worth it if we are leaving from Porto? Or should we skip that and try to come back to the Galicia region on another trip?
Thanks hkto, especially for the sample itinerary- I hadn't seent hat sight before!
Also, any advice on what guidebooks to buy on Portugal or Marrakesh? Since the trip is still a ways out, we have been doing most of our research online, but would like to buy at least one good book to get more in depth research started.
Thanks again!
Wow, Laurie- after reviewing your report on the Peneda Geres National Park, that is definitely being added to the list! I think Prto and the Duro Valley will be as well. Have you spent time in the Beira Litoral region?
I also have printed out a copy of your post on a 1-2 day walking tour in Lisbon-great stuff! That's why I love this site!
With all of the amazing places in Portugal that I keep adding to our list, the fact that we have spent a few weeks in Spain and have never been to Portugal, and the long travel times you mentioned, we are thinking of re-working this to be a Marrakesh-Portgual trip with a possible two day trip to Galicia in Spain. Is a two day trip worth it if we are leaving from Porto? Or should we skip that and try to come back to the Galicia region on another trip?
Thanks hkto, especially for the sample itinerary- I hadn't seent hat sight before!
Also, any advice on what guidebooks to buy on Portugal or Marrakesh? Since the trip is still a ways out, we have been doing most of our research online, but would like to buy at least one good book to get more in depth research started.
Thanks again!
Sep 17th, 2010, 12:39 PM
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Hi, Kayaklady,
I have been to the Beiras on a number of occasions, but here is a short trip report for a weekend that took in some of the less obvious parts of the region:
Day 1 – Out of Lisbon early, drove to Aveiro and were there by 10 or so. Coffee and local pastries, both ovos moles and pasteis de Vouzela (flaky pastries with egg yolk filling). There’s a pretty new market, nice walks along the canals.
We drove south down to Costa Nova, a resort on the lower part of the Ria de Aveiro, a narrow strip of land in between the ria and the ocean. We took a nice walk along the dunes, ate lunch in a family restaurant and had good freshly caught grilled robalo. From there, the drive to Vouzela was about 45 minutes. We stopped here for a walk through the old town, along the river, up to the cemetery where we were surprised to see every single grave laden with flowers. There was a huge number of people walking through the cemeteries and we realized that it was Nov. 1, All Saints Day. Many families coming to the tombs of their family members, it was really quite a social and not too somber event, lots of quiet talking, hugging, etc. From there to our night’s destination, O Mosteiro de Sao Cristovao de Lafoes, http://www.mosteirosaocristovao.com/ was about 35 minutes. We arrived about an hour before dark and had time to take a quick walk down to the river, the gorgeous swimming holes, and walk around the grounds. This is a privately owned monastery, bought 26 years ago by a Porto doctor and his wife. For years this was their summer home, for the 6 children, and now grandchildren. Five years ago, realizing that the cost of maintaining the grounds was going to be a huge burden for the children, the couple decided to try some “rural tourism.” They took the ruins of the animal barn and converted it into 6 rooms, preserving every single standing feature (this was true of the monastery as well). The quality of the workmanship and the decoration and furniture is outstanding, surpassing that of many pousadas we’ve stayed in. It is a LOVELY place. Only downside, you have to drive off premises for dinner, anywhere from 6 km to 10 km, but there is a good selection of restaurants and the owners make the reservations and give great detailed driving directions. We went into the town of Oliveira dos Frades and had a decent veal dinner (local specialty) in a family restaurant. When we got back to the monastery, we lit the fire in the huge fireplace in the commons room and enjoyed it very much.
Day 2 – After a great breakfast in the commons room, the owner gave us a tour (2 hours! but it wasn’t boring at all). We went through the entire monastery, even their personal quarters to see the renovations they had made and how they had kept to the original design and replicated the original materials as much as possible. This was one loving restoration. From there, we went back to the roman bridge, where there was a nice 7 km circular walk that took us about two hours through the fall foliage. Then onto Arouca and its monastery, through great mountain roads (small and narrow, not much traffic, but great views). In Arouca we took a tour of the much larger monastery, had something to eat, and then headed back towards Aveiro.
We spent that night in the pousada outside and to the north of Aveiro, a modern building, but right on the river. Very nice setting. We had a so-so dinner in the pousada – we just didn’t feel like heading out and driving to a restaurant. We enjoyed the view from the reading room right on the water, looking out over the cities on the mainland.
Day 3 – After the standard pousada breakfast, we drove down to the tip of the isthmus right across from Aveiro, San Jacinto, where there’s a nature preserve. We took a well marked 7 km circular walk, out to the dunes on the water, past two lagoons, through pine forests, it was a very relaxing walk. We saw many small fishing boats hauling in a large supply of clams and watched them rinse them off, pack them up, and send them on their way. Very un-mechanized operation, lots of hands on human work and human interaction.
From there, after a light lunch, we decided to drive up through Torreira hunting for some of those pretty boats with the decorated arched bow (the moliceiros), and from there we hit the road to head back to Lisbon. We stopped in Pombal on the way (home of the Marques), climbed up and scaled the castle walls and spent a while in the museum dedicated to the Marques de Pombal (high on Joe’s list because he abolished slavery in Brazil). From there we took the off-highway road for a hundred km or two, stopping at a pottery shop, Olharia Vale Coelho, on the Highway N8, which you will pass if you drive from Batalha to Alcobaca. Hard to miss with al its pottery hanging on racks outdoors. And from there, after a few small purchases, we continued back to Lisbon. Great trip! And here are the pictures that go with it: http://picasaweb.google.com/laurie.r...ToAveiroOct08#
Are there special parts of the Beira Literal that you are thinking of? I have been to a lot of this part of Portugal over the last 5 or 6 years (In fact, I've walked from Lisbon to Porto and have spent the night in lots of Beiras towns).
I think that a lot of these more out of the way places are only accessible if you have a rental car. If you had one, a trip from Portugal up to Santiago would be much easier than the bus or train option. I love Santiago, and I think that with one complete day you can get a good feel for the town. But you won't have a chance to get inside many of the wonderful places to visit in such a short stay. The historic center is very compact, so the distances aren't small. and though the city gets a huge number of tourists, it has preserved a lot of its charm. but you could easily fill up a several week trip in Santiago and the rest of Galicia.
Laurie
I have been to the Beiras on a number of occasions, but here is a short trip report for a weekend that took in some of the less obvious parts of the region:
Day 1 – Out of Lisbon early, drove to Aveiro and were there by 10 or so. Coffee and local pastries, both ovos moles and pasteis de Vouzela (flaky pastries with egg yolk filling). There’s a pretty new market, nice walks along the canals.
We drove south down to Costa Nova, a resort on the lower part of the Ria de Aveiro, a narrow strip of land in between the ria and the ocean. We took a nice walk along the dunes, ate lunch in a family restaurant and had good freshly caught grilled robalo. From there, the drive to Vouzela was about 45 minutes. We stopped here for a walk through the old town, along the river, up to the cemetery where we were surprised to see every single grave laden with flowers. There was a huge number of people walking through the cemeteries and we realized that it was Nov. 1, All Saints Day. Many families coming to the tombs of their family members, it was really quite a social and not too somber event, lots of quiet talking, hugging, etc. From there to our night’s destination, O Mosteiro de Sao Cristovao de Lafoes, http://www.mosteirosaocristovao.com/ was about 35 minutes. We arrived about an hour before dark and had time to take a quick walk down to the river, the gorgeous swimming holes, and walk around the grounds. This is a privately owned monastery, bought 26 years ago by a Porto doctor and his wife. For years this was their summer home, for the 6 children, and now grandchildren. Five years ago, realizing that the cost of maintaining the grounds was going to be a huge burden for the children, the couple decided to try some “rural tourism.” They took the ruins of the animal barn and converted it into 6 rooms, preserving every single standing feature (this was true of the monastery as well). The quality of the workmanship and the decoration and furniture is outstanding, surpassing that of many pousadas we’ve stayed in. It is a LOVELY place. Only downside, you have to drive off premises for dinner, anywhere from 6 km to 10 km, but there is a good selection of restaurants and the owners make the reservations and give great detailed driving directions. We went into the town of Oliveira dos Frades and had a decent veal dinner (local specialty) in a family restaurant. When we got back to the monastery, we lit the fire in the huge fireplace in the commons room and enjoyed it very much.
Day 2 – After a great breakfast in the commons room, the owner gave us a tour (2 hours! but it wasn’t boring at all). We went through the entire monastery, even their personal quarters to see the renovations they had made and how they had kept to the original design and replicated the original materials as much as possible. This was one loving restoration. From there, we went back to the roman bridge, where there was a nice 7 km circular walk that took us about two hours through the fall foliage. Then onto Arouca and its monastery, through great mountain roads (small and narrow, not much traffic, but great views). In Arouca we took a tour of the much larger monastery, had something to eat, and then headed back towards Aveiro.
We spent that night in the pousada outside and to the north of Aveiro, a modern building, but right on the river. Very nice setting. We had a so-so dinner in the pousada – we just didn’t feel like heading out and driving to a restaurant. We enjoyed the view from the reading room right on the water, looking out over the cities on the mainland.
Day 3 – After the standard pousada breakfast, we drove down to the tip of the isthmus right across from Aveiro, San Jacinto, where there’s a nature preserve. We took a well marked 7 km circular walk, out to the dunes on the water, past two lagoons, through pine forests, it was a very relaxing walk. We saw many small fishing boats hauling in a large supply of clams and watched them rinse them off, pack them up, and send them on their way. Very un-mechanized operation, lots of hands on human work and human interaction.
From there, after a light lunch, we decided to drive up through Torreira hunting for some of those pretty boats with the decorated arched bow (the moliceiros), and from there we hit the road to head back to Lisbon. We stopped in Pombal on the way (home of the Marques), climbed up and scaled the castle walls and spent a while in the museum dedicated to the Marques de Pombal (high on Joe’s list because he abolished slavery in Brazil). From there we took the off-highway road for a hundred km or two, stopping at a pottery shop, Olharia Vale Coelho, on the Highway N8, which you will pass if you drive from Batalha to Alcobaca. Hard to miss with al its pottery hanging on racks outdoors. And from there, after a few small purchases, we continued back to Lisbon. Great trip! And here are the pictures that go with it: http://picasaweb.google.com/laurie.r...ToAveiroOct08#
Are there special parts of the Beira Literal that you are thinking of? I have been to a lot of this part of Portugal over the last 5 or 6 years (In fact, I've walked from Lisbon to Porto and have spent the night in lots of Beiras towns).
I think that a lot of these more out of the way places are only accessible if you have a rental car. If you had one, a trip from Portugal up to Santiago would be much easier than the bus or train option. I love Santiago, and I think that with one complete day you can get a good feel for the town. But you won't have a chance to get inside many of the wonderful places to visit in such a short stay. The historic center is very compact, so the distances aren't small. and though the city gets a huge number of tourists, it has preserved a lot of its charm. but you could easily fill up a several week trip in Santiago and the rest of Galicia.
Laurie
Sep 19th, 2010, 06:47 PM
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Thanks Laurie, This is my latest plan:
Marrakesh- 4 days
fly to Lisbon, Lisbon- 2 days
Lagos-3 days
Lisbon-2 more days
Coimbra-2 days
We have three free days left. With these as our preliminary plan, where would you suggest? We are open to either another stop in Portugal or a few days in Spain. Thanks!
Marrakesh- 4 days
fly to Lisbon, Lisbon- 2 days
Lagos-3 days
Lisbon-2 more days
Coimbra-2 days
We have three free days left. With these as our preliminary plan, where would you suggest? We are open to either another stop in Portugal or a few days in Spain. Thanks!
Sep 21st, 2010, 07:08 PM
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Hello Minnesota,
We haven't bought tickets, but so far from looking around, it seems that the best bet is to buy our international tickets from kayak,cheap tickets, etc from US to Marrakesh and out of Lisbon, and then buy a one way ticket from Marrakesh to Lisbon from either a Spanish or Moroccan airline. I have found the Moroccan liner to be cheaper, but maybe others on this forum will know more about going in Oct. We are planning a summer trip, which I imagine will be a bit pricier...
We haven't bought tickets, but so far from looking around, it seems that the best bet is to buy our international tickets from kayak,cheap tickets, etc from US to Marrakesh and out of Lisbon, and then buy a one way ticket from Marrakesh to Lisbon from either a Spanish or Moroccan airline. I have found the Moroccan liner to be cheaper, but maybe others on this forum will know more about going in Oct. We are planning a summer trip, which I imagine will be a bit pricier...
Sep 22nd, 2010, 02:32 PM
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Hi, Kayaklady, I think if it were me I'd try to combine all the Lisbon time into one continuous stretch, rather than two visits of two days. And if you're leaving from Lisbon, that will make three journeys in and out. The amount of time it takes to get into Lisbon, into the hotel, etc. will make a difference if you have to do it twice rather than once, especially with so few days. Lagos to Coimbra just wouldn't be a difficult one day drive. If it were me, I'd arrive in Lisbon, pick up the car and go -- either south to Lagos or north to Coimbra. Then visit the other city before Lisbon. And then spend however many days you have for Lisbon at the end and head to the airport from there. That also has the advantage that you can drop off the car when you arrive in Lisbon and then use public transport and taxis for visiting Lisbon and getting to the airport.
Laurie
Laurie
Sep 28th, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Thanks Laurie,
I think we will split our time in Portugal between Lisbon (4 or 5 days) and Coimbra (2-3 days). I don't want to feel too rushed, and we have extended our time in Morocco to a full 7-8 days. It is hard to decide, and we still have plenty of time to change our plans (nothing is booked yet), but that is what we are thinking...just can't get over the reviews and pictures of Coimbra! Thanks for all of your help, I am sure I'll need more help with specifics as the actual trip approaches.
I think we will split our time in Portugal between Lisbon (4 or 5 days) and Coimbra (2-3 days). I don't want to feel too rushed, and we have extended our time in Morocco to a full 7-8 days. It is hard to decide, and we still have plenty of time to change our plans (nothing is booked yet), but that is what we are thinking...just can't get over the reviews and pictures of Coimbra! Thanks for all of your help, I am sure I'll need more help with specifics as the actual trip approaches.
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:02 PM
#13
You might want to consider heading a little farther north than Coimbra to Porto and the Minho, a beautiful area.
We liked Coimbra but we loved the Minho.
And Santiago de Compostela in Spain is incredible, a highlight for us after two trips to Spain.And a realtively short trip from N. Portugal.
We liked Coimbra but we loved the Minho.
And Santiago de Compostela in Spain is incredible, a highlight for us after two trips to Spain.And a realtively short trip from N. Portugal.
Sep 28th, 2010, 02:31 PM
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Sounds like a wonderful trip! We spent a week in Lisbon and could have stayed longer, don't underestimate it! The guide books say spend anywhere from 1-3 days, but I think you'd be short changing yourself! Such a phenomenal city!
Sep 28th, 2010, 03:32 PM
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I see no reason to go to Marrakesh if you wish to see mainly Portugal. Then stick to Portugal and add Galicia to it. You might want to look up my trip report of that area.
If you insist on going to Marrakesh, I would then visit the two other royal cities; Meknès and Fès. We did that by train, and came back to Marrakesh to fly out by long distance bus. Both modes of transportation were fine. We spent three days in each city, with a day traveling between them (somewhat less between Meknès and Fès). That would take up 12 days of your 14-16 days. Maybe a couple days on the coast or into the mountains would fill those in. I would not short-change Morocco.
If you insist on going to Marrakesh, I would then visit the two other royal cities; Meknès and Fès. We did that by train, and came back to Marrakesh to fly out by long distance bus. Both modes of transportation were fine. We spent three days in each city, with a day traveling between them (somewhat less between Meknès and Fès). That would take up 12 days of your 14-16 days. Maybe a couple days on the coast or into the mountains would fill those in. I would not short-change Morocco.
Sep 28th, 2010, 08:15 PM
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Thank you all for your feedback! Now I am thinking that we will have to split this into two trips. I really wanted to combine Morocco and Portugal for two weeks but we really don't want to be too rushed, so maybe that isn't the best plan. If we absolutely had to combine the two, what would be the top two places in Morocco and top two in Portugal? Don't really want to spend less than 3 days anywhere but would be open to renting a car and doing day trips. We have a full 16 or so days, and am budgeting a couple for travel time and jetlag recovery. Thanks again!
Aug 17th, 2011, 01:59 AM
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Thanks for all of the information about Portugal. You answered the questions that I had too. I am trying to visit either Morocco (probably a guided tour) and either Spain or Egypt9with Portugal).We will have about 3 weeks give or take a day or two. Any ideas or tips from you experienced travellers in this region? We are planning a self drive in Portugal for about 8 days within that time.
