Midnight Mass in Venice
Dec 10th, 2014 | 09:31 PM
#21
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 17,268
Likes: 0
"Catholic Mass, or for that matter any religious service, is not intended to entertain."
It most certainly is: recognising it was a key element in Catholic reforms at the Council of Trent - the source of Baroque art, and most later Western high-falutin' music.
And not just Roman Catholic. Elizabeth I overthrew the fundamentalist Puritanism her grotesque boyish predecessor attempted to impose on England by reinstating, together with Latin where the language was understood, the music and liturgies the Church had inspired over the previous thousand years. Luther encouraged a similar policy.
In Christian societies that had broken with Rome in 1054, no-one ever imagined liturgies weren't there for entertainment. Russia banned those liturgies during its absurd, catastrophic - and in a historic context, mercifully brief - 20th century experiment with state-mandated atheism. But, where Marxism didn't interfere (as in Greece, or in the diasporas), Orthodox rituals have never stopped appealing to the senses as much to the spirit.
The outlier in the close connection between mainstream Christianity and joy is, of course, WASP America. Taking their gloomy misanthropic inspiration from the bigots we expelled for religious intolerance, White American Protestants have created the preposterous heresy jaja is repeating.
But Christianity is growing in the US where that dismal cul de sac is rejected.
It most certainly is: recognising it was a key element in Catholic reforms at the Council of Trent - the source of Baroque art, and most later Western high-falutin' music.
And not just Roman Catholic. Elizabeth I overthrew the fundamentalist Puritanism her grotesque boyish predecessor attempted to impose on England by reinstating, together with Latin where the language was understood, the music and liturgies the Church had inspired over the previous thousand years. Luther encouraged a similar policy.
In Christian societies that had broken with Rome in 1054, no-one ever imagined liturgies weren't there for entertainment. Russia banned those liturgies during its absurd, catastrophic - and in a historic context, mercifully brief - 20th century experiment with state-mandated atheism. But, where Marxism didn't interfere (as in Greece, or in the diasporas), Orthodox rituals have never stopped appealing to the senses as much to the spirit.
The outlier in the close connection between mainstream Christianity and joy is, of course, WASP America. Taking their gloomy misanthropic inspiration from the bigots we expelled for religious intolerance, White American Protestants have created the preposterous heresy jaja is repeating.
But Christianity is growing in the US where that dismal cul de sac is rejected.
Dec 10th, 2014 | 10:49 PM
#22
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 11,786
Likes: 0
I'm sorry you see it that way.
What happened in the year 1054 has little or no relevance for today.
Catholic rituals are comforting to many. Including my family.
Why is it necessary to denigrate others' beliefs, which you probably can't understand in their entirety?
What happened in the year 1054 has little or no relevance for today.
Catholic rituals are comforting to many. Including my family.
Why is it necessary to denigrate others' beliefs, which you probably can't understand in their entirety?
Dec 11th, 2014 | 02:06 AM
#23
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 0
<i><font color=#555555>"Mind your own gods."</font></i>
The gift of laughter is enough to make me a Belieber. And Thin, you have the gift.
Conversing with atheists about God is like Michelin dining with vegetarians: I'd rather have my teeth pulled with no Novocaine.
The gift of laughter is enough to make me a Belieber. And Thin, you have the gift.
Conversing with atheists about God is like Michelin dining with vegetarians: I'd rather have my teeth pulled with no Novocaine.
Dec 11th, 2014 | 02:15 AM
#24
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 57,091
Likes: 5
Glorious. Almost up to London standards of liturgical precision and choral excellence (the first time in my life I've had that experience in Italy either). Almost up to London or Oxford ANGLICAN standards even. Marred only by the usual sullen refusal of the almost 100% Italian congregation to chant the responses (as is liturgically required these days.) So it was just the (two!!!) choirs, me and a handful of other anglophones and Germans.>>
flanner - i was interested in what you had to say about the choir/s in San Marco's on Christmas Day, as they were not in evidence at the Easter Sunday high mass that we went to a few years ago. Then, the choir consisted of a group of adults [one being the elderly gent that I'd sat next to the night before at a concert at La Fenice] who, truth be told, weren't very good, but were better than nothing. [and that can't be said about every choir]. Being used to every cathedral and many churches in England have excellent choirs, I confess to have been rather disappointed with the music, though not with the whole experience.
I wonder if they put on a special effort for Christmas, or if things have changed since our visit which was probably about 7-8 years ago.
flanner - i was interested in what you had to say about the choir/s in San Marco's on Christmas Day, as they were not in evidence at the Easter Sunday high mass that we went to a few years ago. Then, the choir consisted of a group of adults [one being the elderly gent that I'd sat next to the night before at a concert at La Fenice] who, truth be told, weren't very good, but were better than nothing. [and that can't be said about every choir]. Being used to every cathedral and many churches in England have excellent choirs, I confess to have been rather disappointed with the music, though not with the whole experience.
I wonder if they put on a special effort for Christmas, or if things have changed since our visit which was probably about 7-8 years ago.
Dec 11th, 2014 | 03:43 AM
#25
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 8,336
Likes: 0
Usually when an Italian choir tries to improve its quality for Christmas or Easter, they do it by adding other voices to the choir. These often have never, or rarely, practiced with that choir, and they may be soloists rather than choral singers. In the case of parish churches, they may be people who rarely sing in public at all, in which case they augment the volume but not the quality.
Flanner, many of the Protestant churches in the US have a great interest in liturgy and sacred music. Even the Presbyterian church has had a liturgical revival, and the Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians (Anglican) never lost their interest. Some of the greatest sacred music in English is, after all, Methodist, and Lutheran sacred music is known world wide. The Episcopal church in the US continues the great Anglican musical tradition. The choir in which my daughters sang in the US was invited one year to participate in the Three Choirs Festival in England. You seem to have a very limited knowledge of the US.
Flanner, many of the Protestant churches in the US have a great interest in liturgy and sacred music. Even the Presbyterian church has had a liturgical revival, and the Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians (Anglican) never lost their interest. Some of the greatest sacred music in English is, after all, Methodist, and Lutheran sacred music is known world wide. The Episcopal church in the US continues the great Anglican musical tradition. The choir in which my daughters sang in the US was invited one year to participate in the Three Choirs Festival in England. You seem to have a very limited knowledge of the US.
