flygirl

Good morning

Continuing my tradition of only doing anything remotely religious when I set foot in Italy, I think I'm going to try to go to midnight mass this year.

I don't want to go to St. Mark's. I will be going to St. Mark's on Xmas morning with my group of friends.

I was thinking of perhaps someplace a bit smaller and intimate. Or not. The Frari would be lovely. Santi Giovanni e Paolo. Chiesa Santa Maria dei Miracoli. There are so many. And I have no idea if they would all do midnight mass, or just a few of them. I am near the San Stae vap stop, so that might be the best choice if they have it.

I would like to be amidst many people but not a crushing crowd such as St. Mark's. Perhaps one that would be more locals than tourists, if that is possible anymore.

Thoughts?

Thank you.

sandralist

My only experience of that was Santa Maria Glorioso dei Frari. It was a very small group of people in the church, mostly local families who appeared to have come to hear their children sing in the choir. It was also quite cold in the church! That I guess was to be expected. And there was a somewhat extensive presepe (nativity scene). If I had to do all over again, I would have skipped it. Turned out to be depressing if you question the supposed worth of religion.

High Mass at San Marco was quite worth it because of the way the church is lit.

Pepper_von_snoot

My favourite church in Venice is Santa Maria dei Miracoli.

Near San Stae: San Cassiano. A small, intimate church.

Thin

Tabernash2

Midnight Mass in Venice: what a lovely experience. Please let us know where you end up.

sandralist

Not a lovely experience necessarily. Not only did I find it sad in its own way, but so did the person who was with me. I hadn't said anything, but then my companion remarked it was depressing. So flygirl might come back with the same report, if she bothers. I can think of nicer things to do on Christmas eve, which include walking around Venice if it isn't too cold.

Tabernash2

Depressing??

flanneruk

Listen to Sandralist.

We went to San Moise last Christmas Eve, after failing to get into St Mark's (too crowded: the police had to be called to turn us all away). The church was even emptier than Santa Maria Gloriosa, and the "choir" consisted of one off-tune woman.

We left when they got to the Signore pieta, went back to our hotel and I sulked, listening to the bells of St Mark's bonging out for its Gloria. First time in 40 years I've not gone to Midnight Mass, so I went to wander round to see if there was anywhere else handy. There were lots of churches near our hotel: no others were celebrating Mass

We went to the Patriarch's High Mass at St Mark's in the morning.

Glorious. Almost up to London standards of liturgical precision and choral excellence (the first time in my life I've had that experience in Italy either). Almost up to London or Oxford ANGLICAN standards even. Marred only by the usual sullen refusal of the almost 100% Italian congregation to chant the responses (as is liturgically required these days.) So it was just the (two!!!) choirs, me and a handful of other anglophones and Germans.

How is it possible for an entire race to be so musically (or possibly linguistically) degenerate as to turn down the chance to chant Credo III in our religion's most theatrical and blingy basilica? Yet the Italians manage it unfailingly in every great church and cathedral.

My conclusions:
- Few people live in Venice, there's far too many churches and there's a priest shortage. So not all churches have any First Mass of Christmas (with Luke's Gospel): many have only the morning Mass (with John's, which to me just isn't Christmas).
- The Church really prefers congregations (and priests) to go to the First Mass of Christmas early on Christmas Eve evening these days (so the priest can get a night's sleep before trundling round everywhere the following day). That Mass is rarely celebrated in Italy with the great musical settings that most self-respecting English or German churches, of all denominations, regard it as part of their job to perform weekly.
- The overwhelming majority of churches I checked before Christmas as insurance against a rammed St Mark's seemed to have it around 2000.
- Modern Italians' distaste for good music is simply one of those great mysteries of life: try listening to their wretched pop music.
- You cannot assume that a pretty church will have a Midnight Mass.
- Pre-researching Masses is a nightmare. The Patriarchate's website is never kept updated, the Basilica doesn't produce a web listing of festive Mass times or a music list, and most churches use the web only for promoting tourism. Most Venice churches do stick a small poster up on their front door a week or so before Xmas.

FWIW, when we finally made it to Santa Maria dei Miracoli a day or two later, as I recall we saw its First Mass of Xmas had been at 2030.

WARNING. After all that, we ended up on Christmas morning with two different "official" times for the Patriarch's Mass. Unsurprisingly the earlier one was accurate.

Tabernash2

Thanks, flanneruk. That makes sense.

flygirl

Wow. Great advice. Thank you. This is what I was wondering about, to be honest. I figured the amount of people living there full time was so small how could they all have mass, and which ones would offer it.. and would it be a bunch of tourists like me, etc.

I don't want to wait in the cold outside St. Mark's for midnight mass. I don't think I want to go to a church with two or three people, either - that would be depressing. I suppose I could check out a couple near midnight, if I'm so inclined, and see if it's worth going in. Or at least pay attn to the signs on the doors...

Pepper_von_snoot

Also near San Stae: San Giacomo dall' Orio.

I have been to the church "bazaar" in July and it is always packed. The church obviously has a large(r) congregation.


Thin

sandralist

My reasons for saying the midnight mass experience in Venice was depressing for me and my friend had absolutely nothing to do with what depressed FlannerUK.

First of all, I never plan to do anything while traveling I think will turn out to be depressing or worthless. My interest in attending any midnight mass on Christmas Eve is that it is my view that Catholic church architecture is designed to showcase ceremony and ritual. Touring an empty church devoid of worshippers and ceremony gives one sense of the architecture. Seeing it used to fulfill the purpose for which it was built gives you a different sense of the architecture.

That is why I went to midnight mass (I am rarely up early enough to go to morning mass!).

What was depressing was not enough Catholics. What was depressing and saddening to me and to my friend was seeing defenseless children being inculcated and coddled into a religion.

The reaction to flygirl's post of "what a lovely experience!" before she had even had the experience is an indication of that level of sentimentality that doesn't care about the real children dragged into this nonsense if you are a "believer" in the fundamental ideology.

I feel the same way about Judaism, Muslims -- you name it. Most of the time I shrug it off. Standing in a cold church watching it for an hour made it impossible not to reflect on what was really going on.

One of the brighter spots of reading this thread is the suggestions that fewer and fewer and fewer children in Venice -- and can we hope elsewhere -- and made to swallow and regurgitate nonsense with kisses and hugs from the parents they so blindly trust.

sandralist

flygirl, for what it's worth to you, there were at least 50 to 100 local Venetians at the church. Not "two or three." There was a choir, and all the attendant relatives and neighbors. I'm not sure I would have seen more in a US or Canadian church for a midnight mass on Xmas. The church of dei Frari is a fairly cavernous one, so 100 people gathered up front doesn't fill up the church if that would bother you. But don't interpret my remarks about finding the scene unpleasant, depressing or distasteful as due to a lack of locals or a preponderance of tourists. I am reasonably certain we were the only non-locals there, or maybe there were one or two others. It was intrinsically unpleasant, and more locals would not have changed that -- perhaps only made it worse!

Peter_S_Aus

Midnight Mass at the Carmini in Dorsoduro, extracted from my trip report from six years ago:

I am not often accused of being religious, but we did attend Mass at mid-night, in our local church, a church with the odd Tiepolo painting, a Veronese or two, plus minor works. Statues of various Saints and notables chisseled out in 1500 A.D. Incense, chanting, singing, the whole Ecclestical show. One can’t help but be swept up in it, the knowledge that, for a brief time, one is part of an ancient tradition, part of a very old community of faith, and part of a continuing community too. The Christmas story resonates universally.

bvlenci

I don't think it's possible to raise children without inculcating them into something, whether a religious, political, or atheistic worldview unless you turn them out into the world with no viewpoint at all. I'm not Catholic, but I can see that the Catholic Church, at least in this century, advocates peace and charity and love of your neighbor. I can think of far worse standards to hold up to your children. Parents who are agnostic (and there are many of them in all religions) temper the message so their kids feel free to question and doubt.

Anyway, the majority of those little Catholic kids never darken the door of a church again once they've been confirmed, so I don't think the indoctrination is very heavy. Then, when they get married and have kids of their own, they often return to the church, so they must think it added some value to their lives, even if they're agnostic.

Some of my friends who raised their kids as secular humanists have seen them drift into one cult or another. One has become an Hassidic rabbi (not that I'm saying that's a cult) whose many kids are forbidden to eat anything in their grandmother's house.

bvlenci

I have to agree with Flanneruk about the dreadful state of liturgical music in the Italian church. I think some of it is the fault of Pope John Paul II, who had no interest in liturgical music. It's also the fault of the lack of musical education in Italian schools. And it's the fault of modern Italian hymnody, a lot of which is designed for solo singing. In most churches, the hymnals have no musical notation at all, except for guitar chords.

I've been to masses in major cathedrals where the only musical accompaniment was a loud and off-key soprano. Even the Vatican choir wass about on the level of a good Anglican parish choir when I first came to Italy. Pope Benedict XVI is a music lover, and he brought the standard up somewhat, but he wasn't around long enough to have a major effect nationwide. I can't understand how the homeland of Palestrina and Monteverdi could have abandoned its tradition of sacred music so completely.

Ackislander

Of all the absurdities that have appeared under one of your many names, Sandra, this is the worst.

You go to a church to see ceremonies in which you don't believe and become depressed because the church does what it is meant to do. Believers really believe that we are better off encouraging our children to believe and practice their religion. I can in fact agree with you about those fundamentalists, whether Christian, Hindu, Islamic, or Jewish, who impose their religion, but you are acting like a vegan deciding to take up residence in Smithfield Market and then being sickened by all the meat! It is absurd.

I was surprised to see your name again since you recently promised never to return to this forum after we were rude about Gypsies. Should I stop being so polite about Gypsies and be offensive? Would you really, truly go away then?

flygirl

I was inculcated when I was younger, too, and once I was sprung I never set foot inside of a church except for weddings and funerals.. and when traveling.. and when it came to things that were even remotely religious - only while in Italy (the Pope's audience twice, mass, etc). And now I think Imagine had it right all along.

I wouldn't want a steady diet of it, by far, and it is hard to explain but it is a little comforting to be in Italy, in a church, during mass (albeit as an outsider - remember, don't want a steady diet of it). I remember very well all those Sundays as a lass - with the incense and the holy communion and the responses to the priest, etc... and I love Pope Frances. I think he's doing things right, the best he can, and like it not he is a world leader of many people. What he says and does matters. And he's sending a better message than previous Popes (although I admit to a soft spot for JPII as well - he probably did the best he could for HIS time, as well). It's all evolutionary, I suppose.

I've wandered into French churches, but not all that many to be honest - ditto England. Whereas in Italy if there's a church, I'm going in.

I think once we reach the age of reason we can sort things out for ourselves. Granted, not everyone, else we wouldn't have the GOP issues we have today...

Thank you again for the thoughtful replies. I am wandering back over to wanting to go to midnight mass. I will check out San Giacomo dell'Orio as well as the Frari.

Tabernash2

I agree, flygirl, Peter, bvlenci and Ackilander.

Sandralist, what a load: "The reaction to flygirl's post of "what a lovely experience!" before she had even had the experience is an indication of that level of sentimentality that doesn't care about the real children dragged into this nonsense"

jaja

Catholic Mass, or for that matter any religious service, is not intended to entertain. If you choose not to believe, why on earth would you attend a worship service? Obviously for some it is an opportunity to feel superior in your lack of faith.

Pepper_von_snoot

Well, I go into churches to have a look-see at the paintings and the tchotchkes.

The churches charge admission in Venice, and I put money in the donation box so what do you care if I attend a Catholic mass?

Mind your own gods.

Thin