>We love nature and beautiful scenery, hiking, rafting, etc. but also history and sightseeing.<

Might I make a suggestion? Take a look at the German-Austrian area around Salzburg and Berchtesgaden. You'd get both the spectacular scenery and the rich history.

> if we could go the last week in June, would be pretty much miss much of the overcrowding?<

IMO, Yes!

How about Scotland? It has beautiful scenery and crowds are low as long as you stay away from Loch Ness and Edinburgh during the Festival... and even during traditionally crowded times, it's nothing compared to other places during high season.

Just a thought.

Topping...

I am not sure I would agree that the Swiss Alps will necessarily overwhelm all those other mountains you've seen; for example Mt. Elbert and the Matterhorn are both in the same general height range whereas Mont Blanc further west is over 15,000 feet. The overall ambience will certainly be somewhat different in terms of the villages, etc., and crowds or not, I suspect you'll never forget it.

We spent a few days in Austria at the end of July, just over the border from Fussen Germany. It was really gorgeous and amazingly uncrowded. There were people, to be sure, but not a ton. Fussen and Hohenschwangau were another story - crawling with people - but then that is where the Ludwig Castles are, so a lot of people go. By contrast, just outside of Reutte Austria there is a lake called the Plansee - gorgeous area. There were people congregating around the beaches where there were restaurants and things, but it wasn't crowded.

Thanks Janis, for my new facts for today ! Wow, so most US schools have *3 months* off in summer ?!?! Nearly as much as our MPs !

Traditionally, US students are off all summer - when the US was largely agricultural, the school system was set up around the harvest. In exchange though, there are few breaks during the school year - a couple weeks off at Christmas, a week off sometime around Easter, and then a few more days sprinkled throughout the year for various holidays.

Schools in some parts of the US are converting to year round school - they generally divide the students into 4 groups and then rotate vacation schedules. Each group is in school for a certain number of weeks and then off for a little bit. Groups 1-3 may be in school and group 4 is out. When group 4 comes back, group 1 goes out, and so on. The kids get about the same time off as in the traditional system, but it is broken up throughout the year. With such a long break in the traditional system, teachers spend a lot of time at the beginning of each school year reviewing last year's material. This gives kids less time to forget what they have learned. It also helps with over crowding because at any one time, a quarter of the students are not in school. Complicated, but once people get used to the system, it seems to work out pretty well.

cathee,

You could explore both some European history, art, architecture, etc., AND some spectacular mountain scenery with a trip to Münich and then to the Dolomites. Bolzano, a lovely city in its own right (and location of the Iceman museum) is only 4 hours from Münich by direct train. From there, it is a short hop by rental car or scheduled bus service to various villages in the Dolomites.

Or, if you didn't want to go that far, you could visit Garmisch-Partenkirchen for some hiking, including two amazing gorge hikes.

None of these areas should be particularly "crowded" in late June, unless you choose to visit Neuschwanstein castle. We did a very nice trip to these areas, including both Garmisch-Partenkirchen and the Dolomites, a few years ago in August. Even then, the height of the summer, it was not crowded anywhere except on one very popular trail.

Switzerland is also a wonderful option if you purely want to go hiking (fewer historical sites). The mountain scenery is not at all like the Canadian Rockies---fewer broad sweeping vistas; more jagged peaks and glaciers. The hiking there is very user-friendly---now grizzlies to worry about, and there are lifts and Hütte (restaurants) everywhere. That is, it is much more developed than the Rockies, but the scenery is no less stunning.

If you are interested in Switzerland, you can get some wonderful suggestions for off-the-beaten-path travel here. You should probably start with a new question that is more specific.

Thanks for the great suggestions. I have a lot to research. when I get closer to a final destination I will look forward to more advice. I have planned many trips based on fodorite suggestions. they are so much better than simply reading a travel book.

There are grand mountains in central Europe, the Tatra between Poland and Slovakia, and the Carpathians in eastern Romania and south west Ukraine. These names may be strange to you, but if you set the Fodors Europe search software to Lithuania and look for “Lithuania, Fodors first trip report” and “Poland and Lithuania” you will find two recent and well written trip reports by Americans who were delighted by the beauty, low costs, and strong welcome they had in that former Soviet country.

Poland and Slovakia are similar, but have mountains. For surveys please set Google to In Your Pocket Poland and In Your Pocket Slovakia. Those pages are not so strong on the Romanian and Ukrainian mountains, but those are anyway a little less accessible than the Tatra. For the Tatra your best choice is a flight to Berlin or Vienna, and a day in a restaurant car train to recover from the flight, unwind, and roll into the mountains. A specialist travel agent can book you the train. You might phone or email two, Budget Europe Travel Service, phone 800-441-9413 or 800-441-2387, site http://www.budgeteuropetravel.com/ , and Euraide of Florida, E-mail [email protected], phone 941/480-1555, site http://www.euraide.com. If you ask two to estimate you can look for the lower fare. If planes leave Europe in the morning you can take a night train to your airport for your flight home.

Trains that may prove useful are
Berlin main station 0938, Krakow 1917. You would dine in the old town, spend a night in a hotel beside the station, and take a morning train up to Zakopane or bus up to towns in the mountains
Vienna West station 0818, Poprad Tatry 1439
Vienna South station 0928, Bratislava 1025 to 1134, Poprad Tatry 1634
Vienna South station 1128, Bratislava (with a good cold lunch in the station buffet) 1225 to 1313 (not Saturdays) Poprad Tatry 1728
From Poprad Tatry station delightful rack railways climb the mountains in thirty minutes to the mountain resorts
Vienna West station 1452, Poprad Tatry 2113, spend the night, and go up the mountain railway in the morning.

All these trains, except those from Vienna South to Bratislava and on the rack railways, have restaurant cars, as cheap as everything else in these countries, with good beer in Poland and good wine in Slovakia. In Your Pocket Poland has good annotated lists of accommodation in Krakow and Zakopane: a zloty is 3.11 US dollars, and you book online. For hotels in Slovakia you could ask your chosen agent, or look into www.tatry.net/. There re some notes on these mountains on http://www.tatry.sk, but you need a guide book. Busses run between Zakopane and the Slovakian mountains in a few hours of scenic travel, so you could make a two-centre holiday.

The Fodors forum reports on Lithuania say how few English speakers know central Europe, and you will find great mountains there less crowded and cheaper than the Alps or others of west Europe. But please go soon: in ten years they will be busy.

Please write if I can help further. I like these places well.

Ben Haines, London
[email protected]

You might also consider the French alps.