Riffic

I agree with Flanneruk

To all of you commenting on how BAD of an idea it is to drive in Europe for an 18 year old... isn't it a tad bit contradictory to stereotype European driving habits, when you spend most of your time chastizing those who stereotype Europeans, as people, and the cities in which they live?

Ok, so there are no speed limits on some Autobahns in Germany, but not every road is an Autobahn (far from it). In reality, even the more aggressive stretches of road are not too different from my many driving experiences on the DC Beltway or K street. And most times, driving here draws a resemblance to roads in Ohio (gasp), where I spent some of my early driving years.

Also, I'm not sure which countries Alec was referring to when mentioning 'liberal drinking laws.' Here in Germany, the illegal alcohol limit is about 70% of that in the US. France has cracked down on drunken driving over the years--there was even a recent thread about this.

Cobos

Yes I would like to add to Riffic's post as well...The drinking laws in Scandinavia are so tight that you simply do NOT drive the same day you have been drinking. If you drink one 0.33 beer and then wait 5 hours I beleive you are safe, but is already cutting it short. And if you get caught with serious alcohol content in your blood you get 2-6 months of jailtime...

Cobos

wealthy_backpacker

I would not be too worried.

At 18 I hired a car in Mexico and drove around Mexico and I also drove all over western Europe at the age of 18. Having grown up in Australia, Japan and the UK I am used to driving on the left.

Coming from the US you will find it much easier. But Europeans do drive fast and are impatient, particularly when compared to peole from southern states in the US. (I got pulled for excessive use of my horn in Georgia!)

But if you don't have a go at driving you will be like these fodorites who are still scared to drive in Europe when they are retired...!!!

rex

Interesting to see some of the other side of the pendulum here this morning - - and presumably from Europeans?

I glossed over the comments that "I do not like train travel".

This simply is not true, and my liking trains has nothing to do with my advice to coloradoteen.

What IS true is that I am not one of those who carries an infatuation with teens that goes back to some 1969 notion that trains are some liberating factor that "allows" Americans to "see Europe".

Trains ARE the preferred mode of travel for most travelers seeking a route from Rome to Florence, from Florence to Venice, from Paris to Avignon, from Brussels to Amsterdam, from Madrid to Seville - - and the list goes on and on. With the exception of Madrid-Seville, I have traveled most of these both ways. The advantages of train travel is quite indisputable on these routes.

For people who simply like to drive, who have itineraries not well served by direct or high(er) speed trains, or who are traveling with two or more companions, car rental can provide a (sometimes modest) cost advantage - - but almost always a HUGE flexibility advantage.

And for long(er) distance routes - - from Rome to Budapest, from Paris to Rome, from Barcelona to Venice, from London to Prague - - air travel has become time/cost-superior to train travel, in the same that it is for Boston-Raleigh, Buffalo-Chicago or Oakland-Seattle.

Alec

What I meant by 'liberal drinking laws' was NOT the consequences of drink-drive, which is getting pretty severe everywhere, but the liberal availability of alcohol in bars, cafes and restaurants (which would be a real draw for US teens coming from strict Colorado liquor law of 21+ plus ID). You can see this in some horrific crashes involving young drivers and alcohol in Germany, Spain, France and Italy to name a few.
Of course there are good, safe 18 year-old drivers in Europe (interestingly, in some countries like France, all newly qualified drivers - including all 18 year-olds - are restricted to lower speed limits etc). But a sensible parent should be concerned about a pair of 18 year-olds alone behind the wheel first time in Europe. They can and should get the experience of driving in varied conditions, but this is not a sensible way. I'd be much happier sharing the driving with my licensed teen driver.

AAFrequentFlyer

Well said Alec,

I've seen many "experienced" drivers panic in a foreign situations. Make a turn into the wrong lane, misread the signs under pressure, etc.
An 18 year old, and yes I was 18 once, and I did think I was the hottest driver in the world, is still an unexperienced driver at best, even when s/he is very responsible. I really don't want to sound like my DAD but I do see his point now. The teenagers here or in Europe or anywhere else do get wild behind a wheel, it's normal, and in most cases everything works out at the end, but throw in a mixture of different rules, signs, driver etiquette at an inexperienced driver and you are asking for trouble. Just my opinion and you don't have to agree with it.

Patrick

Rex, I think what your many posts HAVE shown is not necessarily that you don't like trains, but rather that you seem to treat them simply as means of getting somewhere. Just like how you ALWAYS put down buying train passes, and you don't see the joy in hopping on a train every other day to see the countryside or do a day trip from a city. If you understood that joy, you wouldn't be quite so quick to continually say things like "if you need a train pass, you're doing to much traveling", something you have said over and over again. After many years I still treat a ride on a train as a stress free adventure. Even if staying in one city a week, doing four or five day trips out can help justify the cost of a pass when it is also combined with some major distance travel. While we often lease a car and love traveling that way, there are many, many times when I prefer trains not only as a way to get somewhere but as a great part of the vacation experience itself.

rex

<<you seem to treat them simply as means of getting somewhere.>>

On this point, then, we shall agree.

<<you don't see the joy in hopping on a train every other day to see the countryside>>

Agreed again, though I _do_ convesely, like driving, in a somewhat parallel fashion.

So, I do not _dislike_ trains, but we shall agree then, that I have not cultvated a _like_ of trains.

And my objection to rail passes is the (old-fashioned, in my opinion) notion that I hear from INexperienced travelers who seem to pick a number of days out of the air - - say 30 - - that they can "afford" to go to Europe, and then like lemmings, flock to the purchase of a 2, 3or 4 week rail pass for four, six or even eight hundred dollars, as if this is some necessary "dues" that they have to pay.

And THEN, start thinking about "okay, where can we go with this unlimited choice of transportation options?"

You're right; I virtually always encourage a very different approach to planning: destinations first, avoiding transcontinental ping-ponging (if the traveler is _willing_to cluster the destinations - - thereby following the slogan "see where you are more, move around less&quot... OR... if the itinerary HAS to include destinations further apart, then use the fastest, cheapest modes to get from A to B.

But then again, even _I_ don't follow this approach, sometimes.

StCirq

<<But that doesn't mean that 18 year olds who WANT to try to acquire these skills, and want to step up to the plate of responsibility cannot or should not.>>

Whoever said that coloradoteen WANTED to try to acquire these skills and "step up to the plate of responsibility" anyway? Coloradoteen hasn't even been back here to check on all his postings, so I honestly doubt he's been checking into some serious training for European driving or would ever consider doing so.

I agree that lots of young, inexperienced travelers think going to Europe means purchasing a railpass and then bopping about wherever the wind might blow them, but that doesn't bother me unless they're spending way more money on the railpass than they would on point-to-point tickets, in which case I usually try to steer them to the cheaper option. There's simply no getting around the fact that traveling around Europe when you're 18 is different from when you're 50. I think I try to take that into account when answering posts, at least I try to. Which is WHY I really think train travel is the better option for these two - that's my considered opinion.

As far as train travel in general goes, I love it. I love relaxing, reading, watching the landscape unfold, chatting with the conductors and imagining what their lives must be like making the same runs every day, checking out what other passengers have brought for lunch or snacks, striking up the odd conversation with a seatmate, and just being transported from one place to another without any responsibilty whasoever on my part. It's a kind of tonic during my travels.

And since I doubt coloradoteen is ever coming back to peruse this thread, I think we may be done with this issue.

Patrick

It is rather odd. Coloradoteen has posted a total of three posts here -- all on March 17, one at 1 PM, one at 3 PM, and one at 7 PM (roughly speaking), but has so far not come back to check any of them out. It would be more understandable if all three posts had been posted approximately the same time, but they weren't.

BrimhamRocks

It would have been helpful to know, from the beginning, which company coloradoteen was talking about in the first place. However, it does look as though coloradoteen has abandoned his/her own post, so the whole thread may be moot.