Hi:

I will be visiting Eastern Europe from the US with my wife and 3-yr old for 13 days (excludes flying time) in mid-September, and had the following cities (and # of days) in mind:

- Fly from US into Budapest (Hungary): 3
- Take train to Krakow (Poland): 3
- Take train to Prague (Czech Republic): 3
- Fly into Dubrovnik (Croatia): 4
- Fly back to US

Nothing's finalized so I can shuffle my entire itinerary.

Now, here are the questions:
1. I can save $300 if I fly out of Zagreb, but I see no quick/convenient way to get to Zagreb from Dubrovnik. It appears I would be spending close to 10 hrs travelling during the day time. Not sure if flying's an option. Please advise.
2. After reading about Plitvice Lakes National Park, I would like to fit this into the 13-day itinerary as well. Do you have any suggestions how I can accomplish this?
3. We do not plan to visit any museums. Just watch the sights and nature so that my 3-yr old has a good time as well. Give this, how does my itinerary look?
4. What are good sites for booking air tickets to fly within Eastern Europe?
5. How is driving in Eastern Europe? I have been driving for 20 years, but never outside the US. Can I survive driving?

Thanks in advance for your helpful replies.

Regards,
D

You need to look at a map and completely re-set your plans. There's no way to do this trip with train travel and a three-year old and have the trip not suck. Budapest to Krakow by train has to be 10-12 hours. Eurail only shows night trains from Budapest to Krakow. I wouldn't take a night train with a three-year old: when you arrive early in the morning your hotel in Krakow won't be ready until the afternoon -- that means puttering around for 6-8 hours with a tired three-year old. There are no TGV-speed trains in the old Soviet satellites (excluding E. Germany).

Krakow to Prague by train is no picnic either. The train path is circuitous and the fastest direct train takes more than 7 hours. There's a reason you'll see Prague-Vienna-Budapest itineraries discussed on this board and not Krakow-Prague-Budapest. If you need to hit Krakow, Budapest and Prague, then fly. Google european discount airlines for possible options.

If you'd prefer to prioritize nature over museums, go to Croatia and leave the old cities for another trip -- it's not like Budapest, Krakow and Prague are nature trips. And each has museums, castles, places of worship and galleries that should not be missed if you've never been there so that just hanging out in the central square and watching the people pass by is a bit of a waste of your travel time. Seriously, you'd go all the way there and not see any museums? That makes no sense.

And why are you driving? You don't need a car in Krakow, Budapest or Prague. Each city is walkable and is loaded with trolley lines to get you where you want to go.

I have to agree with BigRuss, 13 days? no way. You should choose one country and stick with that.

We flew from Zagreb to Dubrovnik for about $30 per person in 06 on Croatia Airlines. The flight took less than an hour.

I have to agree that your trip seems a bit ambitious and I am one to pack a lot into a little bit of time. Having been to Budapest, Prague and Dubrovnik (but not Krakow... yet), I agree with the recommendation to go to Croatia and leave the others for another trip. Dubrovnik is best enjoyed outdoors, in my opinion, with lots of islands near by and beautiful scenery. You can take a trip to Montenegro-- the Bay of Kotor is beautiful-- and then drive from Dubrovnik north, stopping at Mostar (more outdoors) if you want or visit some islands. You can stop for a day or two in Split or Trogir (more outdoors-- Diocletian's Palace is really an outdoor site and the Marjan (hope I'm spelling it correctly) Peninsula has lots of nice walking paths and great views back over Split). Then you could drive about 3 hours from Split/Trogir to Plitvice, which really is worth seeing, and spend a couple of nights there, and then drive the 2.5 hours from Plitvice to Zagreb and fly home. Or if you have a day or two left over you could train to Ljubljana, Slovenia and fly home from there. It is a really neat city in its own right. So for example you could spend, say, 4 days in Dubrovnik (with a day trip to Montenegro), 2-3 days on an island between Dubrovnik and Split, 2 days or so around Trogir/Split, 2 nights (maybe only one day for the Park) at Plitvice, and a couple of days in Zagreb and you would have a fabulous trip. With extra time you could go to Rovinj in Istria but I really think that would be packing in too much. Driving in Croatia is no problem; just get a good map and make sure to get an international drivers license from AAA. Also, make sure you have the right papers in your rental car to go into Montenegro. Of course, if you are set on Prague (which I think is fabulous to walk around and for people watching, regardless of whether you do any museums), you could spend a few days there and then drive or train to Cesky Krumlov and other areas in the Czech Republic. You could also go from Prague to Vienna as that is a fabulous walking city and your 3 year old might enjoy the Lippizaner Stallions and the gardens. There are ways to make any trip work but it is important to try to keep your destinations relatively close together in order to get a real feel for anything and not wear yourself out. Night trains are exhausting. I used them in my backpacking days when covering large distances but I prefer not to use them now (and I'm in my 30s). I could never get a good night's sleep on them. Good luck traveling with a 3 year old. Please write a trip report when you get back, regardless of what trip you take. I'd love to hear your suggestions on making international travel fun for the whole family!

I really appreciate all the replies...extremely frank, honest and practical. I guess I was taking on more than I could handle!

I felt like kicking myself when I read BigRuss's valid point about overnight train trip with a 3-yr old and the hotel not being ready until afternoon. That's some real sound advice...and I should have thought of it myself. My wife and I had done such trips in Italy and France when we didn't have our 3-yr old, but, I guess, things are different now!

Anyway, to get back to the discussion, it appears everyone seems to agree that the best itinerary would be to

1. Do only Croatia for now

OR

2. If I want to stick with my posted itinerary, FLY instead of travelling by train/bus.

Let me discuss this with my wife and I shall post back.

Thanks, once again.

I may not sugar-coat it, but I do try to help.

Cordelia's suggestions for Croatia sound nice and if you have 13 nights, you can probably do justice to Dubrovnik and the Dalmatian Coast.

Just thinking about flying all these legs with a 3-year old is giving me a headache. It's not *just* the plane ride, but also getting from hotel to airport, getting from aiport to hotel, going thru security at airport, getting to airport early ... (and repeat that 4 times)

So after discussing your valuable feedback with my wife, here's what we came up with. Basically, we just decided to visit Croatia, Slovenia and (maybe) Montenegro.

Day 0: Fly out of US.
Day 1: Arrive into Zagreb. Spend the night in Zagreb.
Day 2: Sight-seeing. Late Afternoon train to Bled. Spend the night in Bled.
Day 3: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Bled.
Day 4: Rent a car for a day trip around Julian Alps. Spend the night in Bled.
Day 5: Late morning bus to Ljubljana. Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 6: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 7: Morning train to Zagreb. Afternoon bus to Plitvice. Spend the night in Plitvice.
Day 8: Sight-seeing. Evening bus to Split. Spend the night in Split.
Day 9: Sight-seeing. Evening bus to Dubrovnik. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 10: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 11: Day trip to Korkula. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 12: Rent a car for day trip to Herceg-Novi/Kotor. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 13: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 14: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik. OR Fly to Zagreb. Spend the night in Zagreb.
Day 15: Leave for US

What are your thoughts? Do you think this should be manageable with a 3-yr old?

Regards,
D

I think your itinerary looks good. My only suggestion is based on personal opinion, but Split was not one of my favorite places. We were debating between basing ourselves in Split or Trogir and we're so, so glad we chose Trogir. Split is a bigger, bustling city complete with traffic and lots of people. Trogir is smaller and much more charming. We visited Diocletian's Palace in Split, because we are history buffs, but hightailed it out of there afterwards. I know that some like Split, but I just wanted to throw that out there. If you are imaging a charming city on the coast, Split may dissapoint.

I'm glad you are including a night in Zagreb. So many bypass the city in favor of the coast, but we spent a day there and were glad we did, as it completely exceeded our expectations. There is a really nice pedestrian-only area filled with interesting shops, restaurants and cafes and the Zagreb cathedral is really beautiful and worth a visit as well.

For the last part of your trip, I would be inclined to spend the last night in Dubrovnik unless this affects your flight home (if you are flying back from Zagreb). Dubrovnik is wonderful.

Tracy

Still seems heavy.

Can you stay in Ljubljana and day-trip to and around Bled? Ljubljana is less than 80 miles from Zagreb so it minimizes the number of different places you'll stay -- each additional move will be troublesome for the small one.

Another night in Split/Trogir may be worthwhile too.

Sorry for the delay, but I was out for the weekend. Here are some modifications to the itinerary: added Trogir, shifted base from Bled to Ljubljana, and modified sight-seeing activities in Dubrovnik.

Day 0 [mid-September]: Fly out of US.
Day 1 [Saturday]: Arrive into Zagreb. Spend the night in Zagreb.
Day 2 [Sunday]: Sight-seeing. Late Sight-seeing. Late Afternoon train to Ljubljana. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 3: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 4: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 5: Morning bus to Bled. Sight-seeing. Late evening bus to Ljubljana. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 6: Rent a car for day trips around Julian Alps. Spend the night in Ljubljana.
Day 7: Morning train to Zagreb. Afternoon bus to Plitvice. Spend the night in Plitvice.
Day 8 [Friday]: Sight-seeing. Evening bus to Split. Spend the night in Split.
Day 9 [Saturday]: Morning bus to Trogir. Sight-seeing. Evening bus to Split. Spend the night in Split.
Day 10 [Sunday]: Sight-seeing. Evening bus to Dubrovnik.
Day 11: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 12: Rent a car for day trip to Kotor or Mostar. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 13: Day trip to Korkula. Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 14: Sight-seeing. Spend the night in Dubrovnik.
Day 15 [Friday]: Leave for US

Open Questions:
1. Is it easy to get a car seat for my 3-yr old from the car rental company?
2. Is it true that I can be stranded in Plitvice because the buses to Split can be full and therefore not stop in Plitvice? How do I get around this?
3. Is a day trip to Korcula worth adding to the itinerary?
4. I am inclined to make a day trip to Mostar rather than Kotor for the following reasons. What do you think?
- Kotor is like mini-Dubrovnik, but Mostar is culturally different so it will be a nice change.
- The drive from Dubrovnik to Kotor even though beautiful, is fraught with hair-pin bends, so I am a little reluctant to drive. My wife suffers from motion sickness.
5. Am I spending too much time in Ljubljana and Dubrovnik, and less time in the other cities?

Thanks,
D

Congrats on a much more manageable itinerary. Since you asked, I do think it would be a good idea for you to cut a day from Ljubljana. The city is really nice but it is very small and can be enjoyed in a day, plus the evenings that you have. A second day there would be too much in my opinion. Now, if you were to use that day to drive to the caves or do something else outside of the city, that might make having that second day worthwhile. In Bled, you will probably want to see the castle and the church on the island but really, truly, do make it a priority to hike the Vintgar Gorge. I can't emphasize that enough. It might take you 2-3 hours round trip and is magical. We enjoyed it as much as Plitvice. You can work the gorge, the castle and the island into one full day. I guess you might need nap time in there as well and we found that the grassy areas around the lake were perfect for napping if you are into that sort of thing. Also, since you would be renting a car for the following day, you might want to consider renting a car to drive to Bled. The bus service is fine but it seemed to take forever! If you take a night off of Ljubljana, consider adding it to Plitvice, just so that you aren't rushing so much through that bit of the trip. It looks like you wouldn't even have 24 hours in Plitvice between traveling and that can get wearisome. Also, if you are worried about getting stranded in Plitvice, you could drive from Zagreb and drop the car off when you get to Split. In my experience, drop-off fees within Croatia weren't unreasonable. As for Mostar vs. Kotor, that is absolutely a toss up. We opted for Kotor and thoroughly enjoyed the drive. I get squeamish and queasy with hair-pin bends and had no problem at all with that drive-- in fact, it would not have occurred to me to describe it that way. That was a really easy drive for my husband (he drove) and me. It is my understanding that the Julian Alps drive does have quite a few hair pin curves, so you may want to think about that if it is a concern. I also didn't think of Kotor as a mini-Dubrovnik. To me, it was distinct and seemed more of a city that is starting to come out of the shawdows and into its own-- I found it really interesting. Of course, the drive around the bay is really the highlight of the experience. We didn't go to Mostar but I do wish that we could have for the cultural differences you mention. I don't think that you can go wrong either way, so just go with the one that is most compelling to you. Finally, with respect to Korcula, I have never been but am sure it is lovely. However, it seems like you are moving around quite a bit towards the end of your trip and it might be nicer for you to go to Lokrum or another island that is closer than to go all the way to Korcula. I know this is long winded but I do love Croatia!

I would actually base in Bled instead of Ljubljana, but that's just my personal preference and it depends on whether you want more of a city experience or a nature/lake one. I think a child would also enjoy Bled more.

I would also use Zagreb as a base to do a day trip to Plitvice, and then I would bus from Zagreb to Ljubljana, rent a car for a few days and use Bled as a base to see that area, including a day trip back into Ljubljana (as the previous poster said, it can be done in a day). Then drop the car, bus back to Zagreb. Also, I'd do 2 nights based in Trogir instead of Split (much more attractive little town), and then spend the remaining time in Dubrovnik, taking day trips to islands like Korcula and Lopud, or renting a car and driving into Bosnia or Montenegro for the day. Then fly home out of Dubrovnik instead of going back to Zagreb.

If you changed your itinerary to reflect this, you'd have:

2 nights Zagreb
5 nights Bled
2 nights Trogir
5 nights Dubrovnik

Just my thoughts. Good luck! You'll love Slovenia and Croatia - we went there in 2007 and had a fantastic time.

My two cents regarding Mostar (we were just there last week). I think this would be a tough day trip from Dubrovnik with a 3-year old. Mostar gets lots of tour buses now and the old town was extremely congested and hot. We enjoyed our time there, but we spent the night and we were able to take advantage of the evening & morning hours when the town wasn't so busy. If you're planning to be in Ljubljana on a Sunday, I highly recommend the antique fair along the river!

hi dukkar,

I agree with amanda that staying in bled, especially with a child, would be better than ljubljana, which is another city in a trip which has quite a lot of cities in it.

alternatively, you could think of staying outside Dubrovnik at Cavtat, which is a beach resort nearby. you could then get into dubrovnik by bus.

generally, towns and small children on holiday don't mix.

regards, ann

Thanks for all your replies.

BTW, I am planning on carrying a car seat from the US since the car rental agencies charge about 40Euros/day. Has anyone done that?

This is becasue my fear is that the agencies tell me they have a car seat, and then I go there and realize they don't have any...thus effectively messing my plans.

I'll be driving in Bled, then from Zagreb to Trogir (stopping in Plitvice), then on to Dubrovnik and then a day-trip to Mostar.

Regards,
D

i haven't taken a car seat personally, but I've seen a lot comign off the baggage reclaim conveyor belts.

have you checked what the airline says they charge for cuh items?

regards, ann