Rasputin1

As an outsider from the other side of the world I cannot believe that the original post has taken on a life of its own with posters sniping at each other. Jdraper is right. We all have a responsibility to behave like ambassadors for our countries; teach our young how to behave; teach them honesty and truth; respect history; and cop it sweet when we have done the wrong thing even if the locals do otherwise; ensure that our places of education are aware of how their staff and students behave. Grow up all of you.

MikeBuckley

There are lots of well reasoned posts, including those I disagree with.

I'm continue to be surprised that so many of the posts have nothing to do with whether it is right or wrong for a Clemson professor to lead Clemson students into a Turkey monument after it is closed, all the while insisting that doing so is the <i>right</i> thing to do.

I am fascinated that so many of you know I am participating in this thread, yet most of you make claims about my motivations, my reasoning, my decision to post an open letter, or my use of time and priorities when, instead, all you have to do is simply asked me what they might be. I am happy to answer an respectful questions.

&lt;&lt;the merchant's role really isn't that significant. &gt;&gt;

Agreed. I never wrote that it is. However, it does dispell at least to a limited extent the professor's so-called expertise that Turks don't care that someone enters a closed monument. That particular Turk certainly cares and we now know that others do too.

&lt;&lt; it is unfortunate that instead of engaging the professor and his students as allies in the cause of historic protection and restoration, you mounted a power struggle.&gt;&gt;

Aside from the fact that you are wrong in asserting that I mounted a power struggle, you overestimate my abilities. I'm not capable of engaging people in the cause of historic preservation and protection when those people refuse to pay the fee that supports the cause you mention. If you can advise me about as to what I should have said that I didn't say, I would be genuinely grateful.

&lt;&lt;Why announce the apparently inappropriate behavior of one educator to the whole world?&gt;&gt;

Good question, despite that you omitted the inappropriate behavior of the guide and the students. The reason I wrote an open letter is because the professor seemed all too encouraging of me to write a private letter. I was concerned that I would be completely wasting my time. I hope to mitigate that risk by using the power of the Internet to hopefully elicit a reasoned reply from the University.

&lt;&lt;And why connect the act of one person with a whole university?&gt;&gt;

It's not the act of one person. It's the actions of a university professor and his many students.

Moreover, I didn't make the connection. I didn't even ask if they had a common connection. Instead, the professor and the students proudly established their connection with Clemson on their own.

&lt;&lt;Was it Clemson's fault?&gt;&gt;

I don't have enough information to have an informed opinion about that. I never implied that the actions of the professor and students is the fault of the University.

&lt;&lt;Should Clemson really have to pay $500 for what you have implied is the &quot;immoral&quot; behavior of one professor?&gt;&gt;

Ahem. You continue to leave out those pesky students. No, Clemson doesn't <i>have</i> to pay the $500. I think it would be a good idea for reasons explained in my open letter.

&lt;&lt;Have you attempted to communicate your concerns privately and had them rejected?&gt;&gt;

You apparently didn't absorb the second through fourth paragraphs of my letter. As one of our thread participants already mentioned, I of course communicated my concerns and they were unanimously rejected.

&lt;&lt;you may be a Clemson alumni&gt;&gt;

Nope, but I understand that Clemson is a fine school and I'm sure that all Clemson alumni have good reason to support their school.

&lt;&lt;if the trip consisted of Clemson students led by a Clemson professor - then it was a &quot;school trip&quot; and as such &gt;&gt;

I don't jump to that conclusion. It's possible that this tour group was not sponsored by, under the aegis of, or was otherwise not related to the University. However, if the students or the professor used University materials or facilities in accordance with University rules and regulations to solicit participation in the tour, the University is culpable in my mind.

&lt;&lt;The administration at Clemson should be made aware of this situation. Then - it is THEIR decision as to what action they will (or will not) take.&gt;&gt;

Precisely. And I will respect whatever the University decides.

&lt;&lt;The professor was blatantly wrong to allow it to happen.&gt;&gt;

The professor did more than allow it to happen. He encouraged it to happen and blatantly insisted that it should continue to happen. He called me &quot;narrow-minded&quot; for thinking otherwise.

&lt;&lt;If Mike were one of my co-workers (I am a teacher) and he had a problem with something I had said or done, I think it would be professionally appropriate if he would come to me first. If I couldn't satisfy him, then I think he should go to my superior and voice his concerns.&gt;&gt;

Thank you. I did exactly that.

&lt;&lt;I would not want him initiating his complaint about me through open letters on forums or through letters to the editor.&gt;&gt;

Assume you had done exactly what the professor had done and that you had responded exactly as he did. I would appreciate it if you would please explain to me why I should be so overly concerned about what you would and would not want my next step to be.

&lt;&lt; has anyone contemplated the idea that Clemson might be utterly unknown to the vast majority of the Turkish population? &gt;&gt;

Nope, not I. That's because your point is irrelevant to me.

&lt;&lt;let me state that I am a proud Alumni of this fine institution...&gt;&gt;

I'm sure Clemson taught you better. You are presumably a good alumnus, not an alumni.

&lt;&lt;why not call the local police?&gt;&gt;

The security guard that had been there earlier in the day was no longer there. I had no phone. I was in a country whose language I did not understand one word. Based on my earlier experience with the Turkish police at an even larger town, the attempt to communicate effectively probably would have been futile.

&lt;&lt;What does posting this letter on a site like Fodor's do?&gt;&gt;

It has already generated a reasonably healthy discussion regarding appropriate actions. That's helpful in my mind. I also hope, as mentioned above, to ellicit a reasoned response and action from the University.

&lt;&lt;Does it make people think differently about Clemson?&gt;&gt;

I would hope not.

&lt;&lt;The OP obviously felt the need to &quot;toot&quot; his own horn as the moral compass for the rest of the world.&gt;&gt;

Ahhhhh. You could have asked. Nope. Never having met me, you know my obvious motivations without asking.

&lt;&lt;I'm sure that the OP has never done anything morally questionable over his lifetime.&gt;&gt;

Wrong again.

&lt;&lt; I really don't like to see my Alma Mater bashed in this fashion.&gt;&gt;

You should read again the highly complimentary third-to-last paragraph in my letter. Clemson clearly has much to be proud of with regard to ethics, and I was more than happy to put that under the spotlight then as I do now.

&lt;&lt;The professor may have been from Turkey (we don't know that - only the comment that his name was Turkish)&gt;&gt;

The professor explained that he lived in Turkey for years and is an American citizen. I have no idea if he is or was a Turkish citizen.

&lt;&lt;I don't believe I saw anywhere in the OP's post where he indicated that anyone representing Clemson University was rude to him or his family.&gt;&gt;

True. However, some of the students were rude and some were cordially in disagreement. One student about three inches taller than me and three decades younger than me physically threatened me enough that, thankfully, the guide had the good sense to diffuse the situation by insisting that he back off. The student did so.

&lt;&lt;the professor gave him his card, apparently spoke politely to him&gt;&gt;

All true.

&lt;&lt;I said he was rude to Mike by handing back the business card and saying he would not need it.&gt;&gt;

I did not take that as an act of rudeness. The return of my business card meant nothing good or bad to me.

&lt;&lt;this was partly about theft&gt;&gt;

I'm not sure of the definition of theft. At the least, it is partly about professing (no pun intended) to care about an historic monument but not caring enough to pay a lousy $1.60 for the right to see it, particularly recognizing how much they paid to travel from the U.S to Turkey in the first place.

&lt;&lt;I hold the professor responsible for this as he was in charge but he did teach the students that this behavior was okay.&gt;&gt;

I hold the students equally responsible. They knew better. They chose otherwise.

&lt;&lt;That's outrageous. No other word for it...&gt;&gt;

That's what my wife and I thought at the time. We still do.

&lt;&lt;Perhaps the professor really did know what he was talking about.&gt;&gt;

Perhaps not. The local merchant and at least one Turk posting in this thread thinks not.

&lt;&lt;Mr. Buckley comes off as more vindictive (for the professor's not deferring to his wishes) than concerned about monuments or messages to young people.&gt;&gt;

I hope that's not most people's view. That's certainly not my intention. Thank you for mentioning your perspective.

--------------

Folks, I won't be responding any more to this thread unless I really believe that I can add new comment that sheds new light or unless the University responds publicly or privately. As such, I'll close with the following:

&lt;&lt;I don't think Mike is wrong; I think his methods are.&gt;&gt;

That's a distinction that I'm not intelligent enough to appreciate.

andabanda

This is not right! The original message should have gone to the university and the professor only. The original post on this site should have been without names! Everybody can make honest mistakes. Just because they entered the site they are accused of being potential vandals, thieves because they did not leave the entry fees. They were excited to see the ruins and the local guide reassured them that this was all right.If anybody, he is to be blamed but he only followed the local customs... it's ok to enter.
(Remember, in this area of the world some of the rules, signs are suggestions only...) The professor's fault is not to judge the situation by our own standards. I'm certain that he is not a thief and does not teach the kids to steal bread, etc.
About the ugly Americans: do you think only Americans entered the area after hours? I don't think so.
Are you sure if they left the entrance fees at a nearby establishment it would have ended up at the right place?
This is way out of proportions and I disagree with the professor's decision to enter, but he does not deserve this.

Grcxx3

While I agree that it might have been wise to leave off the name of the professor, I disagree that this was any kind of &quot;honest mistake.&quot; They knew exactly what they were doing.

MikeBuckly - while I understand you not continuing to respond to this thread - but please do let us know if you hear from the university.

GSteed

Was this a Clemson sponsored or authorized tour? Europe is often visited by 'quasi-official' groups claiming or suggesting a university authority. Does Clemson have a code of behavior for such groups? Perhaps Clemson should now institute a 'YILMAY' protocol for their tourng groups.

Cowboy1968

I also understand that you may not wish to contribute any longer to this topic.

I am just not totally convinced that taking this battle to an open arena helped the cause a lot. And the cause was, I assume, to enhance the image of Americans (in general, or in particular when abroad).

While I still totally disagree with the image of the &quot;ugly American&quot; (one concern I hear almost exclusively voiced by Americans themselves), I find certain lines of argueing both revealing and disturbing.

From my personal experience (so please do not misunderstand it as a generalization for 500 million people), the more negative aspects of the image of America (again, an unjust generalization, but we are talking prejudices not facts here) would be:

Bigotry, zeal, crusading, thinking in black and white (good/evil, friend/foe), lack of proportionalism/ reasonable means, and so on.

I can only speculate what would happen if this story made the headlines (in European papers) after all. If you take the diverging views that have been expressed here in the thread, I think it can be doubted that the methods and means, and the lack of proportionalism will meet widespread understanding and support.

Nevertheless, it was exciting and interesting to see (or guess) where the aysayers and naysayers come from. I am still wondering, if the line between support and disagreement runs across the Atlantic, or between the Anglo-Saxon hemisphere and the &quot;rest&quot;, or has nothing to do with these criteria.

Grcxx3

Cowboy - for the record - as one who find the behavior appalling....I am an American who has lived overseas (Egypt, Azerbaijan) for the past 7 years.

MikeBuckley

I would like to repeat that I <i>will</i> continue to post in the thread if I believe such posts shed new light or if I hear from the University. To clarify that, if I don't hear from the University I will also post that information from time to time. I will also answer any respectful questions that seem to be new.

&lt;&lt;Just because they entered the site they are accused of being potential vandals, thieves because they did not leave the entry fees.&gt;&gt;

If you are addressing that to me, I would like to clarify that I made no such accusation and make no such accusation. I also don't remember anyone in the thread making that accusation, though I do remember a somewhat related thought about potential actions of people other than the professor and the students that seemed reasonable to me.

&lt;&lt;About the ugly Americans: do you think only Americans entered the area after hours?&gt;&gt;

That's irrelevant to me. The relevance is that after I explained to the students that their actions in my opinion are the sort that cause people to think of &quot;ugly Americans,&quot; they patently disagreed.

&lt;&lt;Are you sure if they left the entrance fees at a nearby establishment it would have ended up at the right place?&gt;&gt;

No, I'm not sure. However, for those who are holding to the opinion that the professor and the tour guide were the on-the-scene the experts about Turkish culture, keep in mind that both agreed to pay the restaurant as a means of ensuring that the entrance fee would end up at the right place.

&lt;&lt;Does Clemson have a code of behavior for such groups? &gt;&gt;

I don't remember whether I mentioned above that I found no Code of Ethics or Honor Code at Clemson's website other than two codes established by other institutions that apply to the University ombudsman and controller.

bilboburgler

This is a fscinating discusion as it focuses on what is theft, what is property, what is culturally acceptable and one own point of perception. If nothing else I feel this whole thread should be forwarded to the Presidnet of the Clemson University to see the philiophical standards we are putting his actions to.

Just a thought, I get very confused about American educational standards (met too many US taking Masters who seemed incabable of achieving European Bachelor standards) and too many UK universities which are basically technical colleges. Could we define Clemson as mainly teaching 18 to 21 year olds with say a morning of lectures and then assignment work for the rest of the week. Or what

MikeBuckley

I received a thoroughly responsive email today from Mr. Barker, president of Clemson University, that is very satisfactory. He thanked me for writing and acknowledged the discussion that took place in this forum prior to receipt of my open letter.

His email explains that he expects Clemson staff and students to conform to local regulations when travelling in other countires, though subject to the culture and customs of the locality. He understandably has great respect for Professor Yilmay's understanding of all of that as it pertains to Turkey.

Mr. Barker has asked the professor to copy him in his response to me.
He has also copied our communication to the director of Clemson's Study Abroad program along with the suggestion that students be reminded to be on their best behavior while visiting other countries.

Lastly, Mr. Barker explained that he will take the suggestions in my open letter under consideration.

I responded with thanks for his prompt response and all of the details in it.

I look forward to Professor Yilmay's response.

jdraper

Mike: I am happy to hear that you got a response from Mr. Barker and that he appears to be taking this matter seriously. I applaud your efforts to rectify this matter and hope that students at all universities will be taught to be good citizens of the world and respect others laws, regulations and customs. Clemson is a fine institution and I know that the message they want to pass on to their students is one of honor and integrity. I hate that fellow South Carolinians were involved in this matter but commend Mr Barker for responding. Good job Mike. J