Illicit Entry into a Turkish Monument -- Open Letter to President of Clemson University
May 29th, 2008, 09:32 AM
#42
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Well, if everyone is allowed to just openly flout regulations about entering historical sites of antiquity after hours, what's to prevent vandals or students from going in and hacking away little bits and pieces as "souvenirs" at various sites like the Colosseum in Rome, for instance? Well, what prevents them from doing that in Italy are security guards and police that are stationed around these historical sites after closing hours. Turkey may not have funds to pay for that sort of policing. Egypt also not. Does that mean that the regulations they have about entrance should just be openly ignored, PARTICULARLY by an American university group? That's outrageous. No other word for it, and I don't give a damn whether the Prof. in question is Turkish-maybe Clemson ought to revoke his privileges for leading any student groups over to Turkey in the future, among other administrative sanctions it may take!
Mike-you need to send a copy of your letter ASAP to the AMERICAN EMBASSY IN ANKARA-THAT is where it will make the most difference I believe-because that is part of the US Embassy's job, to deal with US student organizations/businesses that come to the host country, cooperative cultural ties with the host nation, etc. I am quite sure they will respond to the letter very seriously, and take action to prevent such happenings by official American tour groups again.
US Embassy Ankara: www.turkey.usembassy.gov
Mike-you need to send a copy of your letter ASAP to the AMERICAN EMBASSY IN ANKARA-THAT is where it will make the most difference I believe-because that is part of the US Embassy's job, to deal with US student organizations/businesses that come to the host country, cooperative cultural ties with the host nation, etc. I am quite sure they will respond to the letter very seriously, and take action to prevent such happenings by official American tour groups again.
US Embassy Ankara: www.turkey.usembassy.gov
May 29th, 2008, 10:51 AM
#47
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Just an example: if a citizen of a city drops fast food wrappers in the street, that is wrong but witnesses do not assume every citizens of the city is a litterer.
If a visitor or tourist does the same thing, witnesses to the act will assume all visitors or tourists from the same place as the offender are litterers.
The fact the students were from Clemson is irrelevant. The fact is, they do represent Americans. This kind of behavior is why American tourists are not totally welcome except economially.
If a visitor or tourist does the same thing, witnesses to the act will assume all visitors or tourists from the same place as the offender are litterers.
The fact the students were from Clemson is irrelevant. The fact is, they do represent Americans. This kind of behavior is why American tourists are not totally welcome except economially.
May 29th, 2008, 11:10 AM
#50
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I wish the same amount of publicity, awareness and sensitivity were shown about the illicit entry of US into Iraq and looting of The National Museum of Iraq which used to contain priceless relics from Mesopotamian civilization.
May 29th, 2008, 11:23 AM
#51
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Right, Padraig. They don't judge a whole nation by one bad act.
However, they do get a certain impression of Americans, which is then reinforced the next time they see an American doing anything the least unpleasant, and then it accumulates to the "ugly American" stereotype that most of us are so anxious to avoid.
However, they do get a certain impression of Americans, which is then reinforced the next time they see an American doing anything the least unpleasant, and then it accumulates to the "ugly American" stereotype that most of us are so anxious to avoid.
May 29th, 2008, 11:52 AM
#54
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Can't do a thing about it...
Except, as individuals, do our absolute best not to add to it, by behaving ourselves nicely, as guests in somone's home.
BTW, what if a group of Japanese decided to take a boat out to the Statue of Liberty and have a visit after hours?
Except, as individuals, do our absolute best not to add to it, by behaving ourselves nicely, as guests in somone's home.
BTW, what if a group of Japanese decided to take a boat out to the Statue of Liberty and have a visit after hours?
May 29th, 2008, 12:29 PM
#56
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I for one do not see the point of publicly humiliating Prof. Yilmaz on an internet message board, and I would hope the OP would have better judgment than to send letters to newspapers, the American Embassy, etc. as some of the other posters suggest. I'm guessing the guide accompanying the group is government-licensed (if Turkey is like Greece) and knows exactly what can and cannot be done. I've seen far worse behavior at archaeological sites than simply slipping over a fence to see the site. Now if the students were carrying off bits of Didyma, that'd be a different story.
An Associate Professor is tenured. So frankly, no one at Clemson is going to give a hoot. You made your views known at the site: let it go.
I think the Moderator should delete this thread as public slander.
An Associate Professor is tenured. So frankly, no one at Clemson is going to give a hoot. You made your views known at the site: let it go.
I think the Moderator should delete this thread as public slander.
May 29th, 2008, 01:07 PM
#58
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Girlspytravel
The professor and his students owe the site $35 or so in admission fees, and yes, I fully agree that this should be paid - but this doesn't constitute proof that they were vandals on the make.
In contrast, for people to adhere to opening hours is no reliable predictor of their future behaviour. In the days before electronic theft became possible, bank robbers routinely entered during opening hours. Hotels still lose tons of stuff this way - from none other than their guests who enter during business hours, and who even pay for their rooms, while at one and the same time walking out with everything from the bathrobes to the bath faucets.
In short, plenty of people obey nominal rules, while flouting the big ones. So it is quite possible to have a converse situation, as this one probably was.
The Turkish authorities made the rules - and they also have the authority to rule on how best to handle these sorts of situations. What we likely have here are people whose greatest crime was impatience. It seems likely they otherwise have a strong interest in preserving Turkey's antiquities. I repeat, I'm not condoning what they did, but I also think that inviting them to get on-side and consider what they can do in the way of constructive help seems far more effective than turning this into a internal dispute at a foreign university.
The professor and his students owe the site $35 or so in admission fees, and yes, I fully agree that this should be paid - but this doesn't constitute proof that they were vandals on the make.
In contrast, for people to adhere to opening hours is no reliable predictor of their future behaviour. In the days before electronic theft became possible, bank robbers routinely entered during opening hours. Hotels still lose tons of stuff this way - from none other than their guests who enter during business hours, and who even pay for their rooms, while at one and the same time walking out with everything from the bathrobes to the bath faucets.
In short, plenty of people obey nominal rules, while flouting the big ones. So it is quite possible to have a converse situation, as this one probably was.
The Turkish authorities made the rules - and they also have the authority to rule on how best to handle these sorts of situations. What we likely have here are people whose greatest crime was impatience. It seems likely they otherwise have a strong interest in preserving Turkey's antiquities. I repeat, I'm not condoning what they did, but I also think that inviting them to get on-side and consider what they can do in the way of constructive help seems far more effective than turning this into a internal dispute at a foreign university.
May 29th, 2008, 02:51 PM
#59
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Of course what they did was wrong. But not every broken rule should be turned into, as someone said, an international incident or an excuse to publicly humiliate someone.
When I was in Yorkshire, I, quite by surprise, drove by Pendragon Castle. There was a chain across the drive and a sign saying "private property--no trespassing." There in the twilight, along a lonely country road, I walked over the flimsy barrier and had an amazing experience there among ancient stones and idyllic sheep.
Closer to home, the public beaches are officially off-limits to dogs. But everyone knows that you can bring your pooch to romp in the waves before the 8 a.m. arrival of the lifeguards. Everyone knows it's against the rules, does it anyway, and has a lovely time.
So, the point is, everything is context, and it doesn't seem like there is anyone here who really knows for certain what the customs are relating to trespassing at the monument in question. If a rule is regularly flouted and no one really does anything to stop it, then its status as a rule is weakened. Perhaps the professor really did know what he was talking about.
But Mr. Buckley's cause would be better served if he sent the professor's name and associations to the Turkish authorities to do with them what they wish. Hearing from them would certainly carry more weight with the Clemson president. As it stands, Mr. Buckley comes off as more vindictive (for the professor's not deferring to his wishes) than concerned about monuments or messages to young people.
When I was in Yorkshire, I, quite by surprise, drove by Pendragon Castle. There was a chain across the drive and a sign saying "private property--no trespassing." There in the twilight, along a lonely country road, I walked over the flimsy barrier and had an amazing experience there among ancient stones and idyllic sheep.
Closer to home, the public beaches are officially off-limits to dogs. But everyone knows that you can bring your pooch to romp in the waves before the 8 a.m. arrival of the lifeguards. Everyone knows it's against the rules, does it anyway, and has a lovely time.
So, the point is, everything is context, and it doesn't seem like there is anyone here who really knows for certain what the customs are relating to trespassing at the monument in question. If a rule is regularly flouted and no one really does anything to stop it, then its status as a rule is weakened. Perhaps the professor really did know what he was talking about.
But Mr. Buckley's cause would be better served if he sent the professor's name and associations to the Turkish authorities to do with them what they wish. Hearing from them would certainly carry more weight with the Clemson president. As it stands, Mr. Buckley comes off as more vindictive (for the professor's not deferring to his wishes) than concerned about monuments or messages to young people.
May 29th, 2008, 03:11 PM
#60
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As someone that teaches at the university level, I find the professor's actions to be an insult to the University.
Regardless of the "culture" or "tradition" or whatever, the professor provided the example of "rules do not apply to me". How would he react if a student was caught cheating and defended the action by saying it is his culture to cheat.
The defense of the action is simply wrong. As teachers we instruct by our actions as much as our words. His actions showed that if you are short on time, then anything is okay.
I applaud Mike Buckley for his actions and his posting in this forum.
dave
Regardless of the "culture" or "tradition" or whatever, the professor provided the example of "rules do not apply to me". How would he react if a student was caught cheating and defended the action by saying it is his culture to cheat.
The defense of the action is simply wrong. As teachers we instruct by our actions as much as our words. His actions showed that if you are short on time, then anything is okay.
I applaud Mike Buckley for his actions and his posting in this forum.
dave
