Illicit Entry into a Turkish Monument -- Open Letter to President of Clemson University
May 28th, 2008, 11:02 AM
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Illicit Entry into a Turkish Monument -- Open Letter to President of Clemson University
I placed hard copies of the open letter shown below to the President of Clemson University and copied to the referenced Assistant Professor in the U. S. mail today.
-------------------------
May 29, 2008
Mr. James F. Barker, President
Clemson University
Clemson, South Carolina 29634
Subject: Open Letter to President Barker
Dear Mr. Barker:
On May 22, 2008, my wife and I watched Clemson Associate Professor Umit Yilmay, Ph. D., lead about 15 to 20 Clemson students into the Temple of Apollo located at Didim, Turkey. The monument had been closed about two hours. They entered by climbing over an opening in the barrier.
I confirmed with Dr. Yilmay that he understood that the site was closed. Having lived in Turkey for years, he explained that Turks, unlike Americans, understand the importance of being indifferent to certain kinds of rules, such as the rule in question about entering a closed monument. The group’s (presumably Turkish) guide further explained that he regularly leads tourists into the site during closed hours.
I asked the gathering of students if any of them agreed with me that what they were doing was wrong. I clarified that their actions in full view of the locals are exactly what causes people to think of “ugly Americans.” None of the students openly agreed. Only one student defended their actions, citing their limited time as justification.
At my suggestion, both the professor and the guide agreed to paying the entrance fee to a nearby restaurant, ensuring that the site would collect the revenue the next morning that was due. To the best of my knowledge, neither did so. It was apparently important that the Clemson group avoid paying the fee, which is only about $1.60 per person.
The next morning, a Turkish merchant who had witnessed my failed conversations with the Clemson group stopped my wife and me to thank me for my attempt to persuade the group. In his words, “closed means closed.”
I am confident that you agree with him. One of your goals for 2011 approved by the Board of Trustees to enhance Clemson’s national reputation is to “promote high integrity and professional demeanor among all members of the University community.” I also see the impressive track record in the last five years of Clemson’s Rutland Institute for Ethics and the Clemson Ethics Bowl team. They regularly address issues that are far more complex than whether it is right or wrong to enter a closed national monument in Turkey.
I suggest that Clemson should make a $500 donation to the temple site. Doing so would acknowledge the monument’s historic importance and demonstrate that illicit entry to national monuments in any country by Clemson faculty and students is neither supported nor condoned by the University. I also recommend that all university personnel and students participating in university-related activities sign a contract that they will act in accordance with the rules and regulations of the localities they visit. Lastly, the illicit entry should be recorded in the professor’s and students’ files.
Please feel free to respond to this open letter, which is publicly available at the following web page of Fodors.com: [URL inserted in the hard copy]
Sincerely,
Michael P. Buckley
Copy: Umit Yilmaz, Ph. D., Associate Professor, Director of Landscape Architecture, Clemson University
-------------------------
May 29, 2008
Mr. James F. Barker, President
Clemson University
Clemson, South Carolina 29634
Subject: Open Letter to President Barker
Dear Mr. Barker:
On May 22, 2008, my wife and I watched Clemson Associate Professor Umit Yilmay, Ph. D., lead about 15 to 20 Clemson students into the Temple of Apollo located at Didim, Turkey. The monument had been closed about two hours. They entered by climbing over an opening in the barrier.
I confirmed with Dr. Yilmay that he understood that the site was closed. Having lived in Turkey for years, he explained that Turks, unlike Americans, understand the importance of being indifferent to certain kinds of rules, such as the rule in question about entering a closed monument. The group’s (presumably Turkish) guide further explained that he regularly leads tourists into the site during closed hours.
I asked the gathering of students if any of them agreed with me that what they were doing was wrong. I clarified that their actions in full view of the locals are exactly what causes people to think of “ugly Americans.” None of the students openly agreed. Only one student defended their actions, citing their limited time as justification.
At my suggestion, both the professor and the guide agreed to paying the entrance fee to a nearby restaurant, ensuring that the site would collect the revenue the next morning that was due. To the best of my knowledge, neither did so. It was apparently important that the Clemson group avoid paying the fee, which is only about $1.60 per person.
The next morning, a Turkish merchant who had witnessed my failed conversations with the Clemson group stopped my wife and me to thank me for my attempt to persuade the group. In his words, “closed means closed.”
I am confident that you agree with him. One of your goals for 2011 approved by the Board of Trustees to enhance Clemson’s national reputation is to “promote high integrity and professional demeanor among all members of the University community.” I also see the impressive track record in the last five years of Clemson’s Rutland Institute for Ethics and the Clemson Ethics Bowl team. They regularly address issues that are far more complex than whether it is right or wrong to enter a closed national monument in Turkey.
I suggest that Clemson should make a $500 donation to the temple site. Doing so would acknowledge the monument’s historic importance and demonstrate that illicit entry to national monuments in any country by Clemson faculty and students is neither supported nor condoned by the University. I also recommend that all university personnel and students participating in university-related activities sign a contract that they will act in accordance with the rules and regulations of the localities they visit. Lastly, the illicit entry should be recorded in the professor’s and students’ files.
Please feel free to respond to this open letter, which is publicly available at the following web page of Fodors.com: [URL inserted in the hard copy]
Sincerely,
Michael P. Buckley
Copy: Umit Yilmaz, Ph. D., Associate Professor, Director of Landscape Architecture, Clemson University
May 28th, 2008, 04:28 PM
#2
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 57,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A nice gesture.
But people who feel entitled NEVER think the rules apply to them. Too bad the rest of the students were such worms - but then I guess they're depending on a grade from their "teacher".
But people who feel entitled NEVER think the rules apply to them. Too bad the rest of the students were such worms - but then I guess they're depending on a grade from their "teacher".
May 28th, 2008, 07:12 PM
#5
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 656
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mail it to the State Newspaper and it will receive statewide circulation in South Carolina as follows:
The State Newspaper
P.O. Box 1333
Columbia, SC 29202
(physical)
1401 Shop Road
Columbia, SC 29201-4843
News: (803) 771-8415 or toll-free at (800) 288-2727
Sports: (803) 771-8470
Editorial: (803) 771-8465
Send a story idea: [email protected]
Send a letter to the editor: [email protected]
You can also call or write to WIS TV, which has statewide news in South Carolina as follows:
WIS TV
1111 Bull Street
Columbia, SC 29201
Phone - (803)758-1260
As for myself, I will contact frieds and collegues who are alumni from Clemson (you know, those who were misguided and went to Clemson instead of going to University of South Carolina as would have been appropriate). I will pass on this information and ask them to contact the president of Clemson and the members of the Board of Trustees for Clemson. I would think the alumni (and their dollars) will cause someone to pay attention.
Thank you for sharing this information. J
The State Newspaper
P.O. Box 1333
Columbia, SC 29202
(physical)
1401 Shop Road
Columbia, SC 29201-4843
News: (803) 771-8415 or toll-free at (800) 288-2727
Sports: (803) 771-8470
Editorial: (803) 771-8465
Send a story idea: [email protected]
Send a letter to the editor: [email protected]
You can also call or write to WIS TV, which has statewide news in South Carolina as follows:
WIS TV
1111 Bull Street
Columbia, SC 29201
Phone - (803)758-1260
As for myself, I will contact frieds and collegues who are alumni from Clemson (you know, those who were misguided and went to Clemson instead of going to University of South Carolina as would have been appropriate). I will pass on this information and ask them to contact the president of Clemson and the members of the Board of Trustees for Clemson. I would think the alumni (and their dollars) will cause someone to pay attention.
Thank you for sharing this information. J
May 28th, 2008, 08:21 PM
#7
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't think entering a monument during closed hours is such a huge deal. They obviously didn't do it to avoid paying $1.60 but were short on time and after all led by a Turkish guide.
You need to learn to pick your battles and find a more worthwhile cause on which to spend your energy.
You need to learn to pick your battles and find a more worthwhile cause on which to spend your energy.
May 28th, 2008, 10:22 PM
#8
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Another vote for Anya's point of view. According to the text, this is normal behaviour of the locals too - so, when in Rome...
Mr. Mike Buckley should look for more interesting topics to occupy his seemingly vastly spare time.
Mr. Mike Buckley should look for more interesting topics to occupy his seemingly vastly spare time.
May 28th, 2008, 11:03 PM
#9
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the perspective of preserving historic architecture and art, I was wondering who would be the bigger threat: the thousands of legitimate tourists per day or week, or a group of 25 people lead by their professor and a local guide.
I do know, though, that Turkish authorities run a pretty strict regime on their heritage. Even picking up a tiny piece of a shattered column is not a wise idea.
Dodging the entrance fee was not okay, agreed.
So, I think what this professor did was neither smart nor totally in line with "The Rules" -- but being a tell-tale is also not that awfully nice.
But I do find the (seemingly widespread?) obsession or fear of being regarded as "ugly Americans" somewhat irritating.
The only time I remember the term "ugly American" being used, e.g. in newspapers or discussions, was in the context of countries being invaded and historical artefacts between Euphrat and Tigris getting bombed away.
The examples some Americans give here for being counted in that category are usually totally blown out of perspective: talking loudly on the Metro, entering a historic site after hours, etc.
If someone wishes to engage in the preservation of the birthplace of civilization, one may find more rewarding fields of activity in Turkey's Eastern neighbor.
I do know, though, that Turkish authorities run a pretty strict regime on their heritage. Even picking up a tiny piece of a shattered column is not a wise idea.
Dodging the entrance fee was not okay, agreed.
So, I think what this professor did was neither smart nor totally in line with "The Rules" -- but being a tell-tale is also not that awfully nice.
But I do find the (seemingly widespread?) obsession or fear of being regarded as "ugly Americans" somewhat irritating.
The only time I remember the term "ugly American" being used, e.g. in newspapers or discussions, was in the context of countries being invaded and historical artefacts between Euphrat and Tigris getting bombed away.
The examples some Americans give here for being counted in that category are usually totally blown out of perspective: talking loudly on the Metro, entering a historic site after hours, etc.
If someone wishes to engage in the preservation of the birthplace of civilization, one may find more rewarding fields of activity in Turkey's Eastern neighbor.
May 29th, 2008, 01:52 AM
#10
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks to all of you who provided informed comment to my open letter. Some very good points were made. I'll address a few in no particular order.
My hunch is that there were probably some well reasoned students who were probably embarrassed when the wrongness of what they were doing was put under a spotlight. I was sympathetic, but only to a certain extent, that they had to deal with the peer pressure of being captive on a bus with their fellow students and professor, some of whom were moderately hostile about their perceived right to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to do it.
Regarding the notion that we should do in Rome as Romans do, that by and large applies only to actions that comply with local rules and regulations. Entering the site when it is closed clearly is not in compliance.
I agree with the comment that the issue regarding "ugly Americans" can be easily overstated. I hope I didn't do so. I included that in the letter as a pre-emptive strike against what I expect some of the students to inaccurately portray if they are questioned about what actually happened.
I regularly pick much more important battles than this one. However, sometimes the small battles need to be picked for the simple reason that they are small enough that they won't otherwise be picked. If you had personally spoken to the local merchant as I did who was mad at everyone for entering the site after hours, you might think it is actually a larger battle than otherwise perceived.
Regarding the comment that my open letter constitutes being a tell-tale, perhaps some context not included in the letter will be helpful. The professor proudly stated that he was from Clemson, that he was leading Clemson students, and that what he and they were doing was right, not wrong. When I explained that I planned on writing to Clemson about their actions, he encouraged me to do so. In fact, we exchanged business cards, though he returned mine with the explanation that he had no need for it.
Thanks again for the many helpful comments.
My hunch is that there were probably some well reasoned students who were probably embarrassed when the wrongness of what they were doing was put under a spotlight. I was sympathetic, but only to a certain extent, that they had to deal with the peer pressure of being captive on a bus with their fellow students and professor, some of whom were moderately hostile about their perceived right to do whatever they wanted whenever they wanted to do it.
Regarding the notion that we should do in Rome as Romans do, that by and large applies only to actions that comply with local rules and regulations. Entering the site when it is closed clearly is not in compliance.
I agree with the comment that the issue regarding "ugly Americans" can be easily overstated. I hope I didn't do so. I included that in the letter as a pre-emptive strike against what I expect some of the students to inaccurately portray if they are questioned about what actually happened.
I regularly pick much more important battles than this one. However, sometimes the small battles need to be picked for the simple reason that they are small enough that they won't otherwise be picked. If you had personally spoken to the local merchant as I did who was mad at everyone for entering the site after hours, you might think it is actually a larger battle than otherwise perceived.
Regarding the comment that my open letter constitutes being a tell-tale, perhaps some context not included in the letter will be helpful. The professor proudly stated that he was from Clemson, that he was leading Clemson students, and that what he and they were doing was right, not wrong. When I explained that I planned on writing to Clemson about their actions, he encouraged me to do so. In fact, we exchanged business cards, though he returned mine with the explanation that he had no need for it.
Thanks again for the many helpful comments.
May 29th, 2008, 02:06 AM
#11
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<The group’s (presumably Turkish) guide further explained that he regularly leads tourists into the site during closed hours.>>
<<The next morning, a Turkish merchant who had witnessed my failed conversations with the Clemson group stopped my wife and me to thank me for my attempt to persuade the group. In his words, “closed means closed.”
>>
As far as whether or not it is "acceptable" to enter an historic site after house, based on the information given, I would side with the merchant.
The guide with the students was obviously "on the job" and had the support/encouragement of the professor. He was caught sneaking into the site and, naturally, would defend his actions.
However, there was no "motive" for the merchant to go the extra step of stopping the OP and thanking him for his efforts. Obviously, he felt the action was unacceptable.
I wonder whether this stop was actually part of their scheduled activities or just a whim. Seems to me, if it was scheduled, and if they were running late for some reason, the tour guide could have contacted the monument office (tickets are sold, so there would be SOME kind of office) and try to make arrangements for a later visit. Would it have worked? Maybe not - but it would have been worth a try.
While the question of preservation of historic sites is certainly important, I worry just as much about the "message" this is sending to these college kids. Rather sad - IMO.
<<The next morning, a Turkish merchant who had witnessed my failed conversations with the Clemson group stopped my wife and me to thank me for my attempt to persuade the group. In his words, “closed means closed.”
>>
As far as whether or not it is "acceptable" to enter an historic site after house, based on the information given, I would side with the merchant.
The guide with the students was obviously "on the job" and had the support/encouragement of the professor. He was caught sneaking into the site and, naturally, would defend his actions.
However, there was no "motive" for the merchant to go the extra step of stopping the OP and thanking him for his efforts. Obviously, he felt the action was unacceptable.
I wonder whether this stop was actually part of their scheduled activities or just a whim. Seems to me, if it was scheduled, and if they were running late for some reason, the tour guide could have contacted the monument office (tickets are sold, so there would be SOME kind of office) and try to make arrangements for a later visit. Would it have worked? Maybe not - but it would have been worth a try.
While the question of preservation of historic sites is certainly important, I worry just as much about the "message" this is sending to these college kids. Rather sad - IMO.
May 29th, 2008, 02:16 AM
#12
Original Poster
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Seems to me, if it was scheduled, and if they were running late for some reason, the tour guide could have contacted the monument office>>
The statements made by the professor and certain students made it very clear to me that they not only had a right to enter the site after hours, that it was the right thing to do and encouraged others to do it.
<<I worry just as much about the "message" this is sending to these college kids.>>
Sorry to inform you that these young adults are well past being sent messages. They are sending their own messages, most of which were expressed to me in the form of personal attacks that I haven't even bothered to mention.
The statements made by the professor and certain students made it very clear to me that they not only had a right to enter the site after hours, that it was the right thing to do and encouraged others to do it.
<<I worry just as much about the "message" this is sending to these college kids.>>
Sorry to inform you that these young adults are well past being sent messages. They are sending their own messages, most of which were expressed to me in the form of personal attacks that I haven't even bothered to mention.
May 29th, 2008, 02:21 AM
#13
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry I have to agree with MikeBuckley ....rules are rules and they are there for a reason..
I find it utterly disgusting that these folks entered a Turkish tourism site without permission..they could have gotten permission before hand for a special opening for their case of ''time ''.
Again it has nothing to do with the money factor it is the principal of the matter...they are tresspassing....disobeying the rules and regulations..and sorry I dont care if the locals do it all the time..
I think someting like this should be sent to the Turkish Turism board and they should be made aware that this is going on..
would you just walk into or enter at a side window into a museum ?? if it was closed..I think not..
I find it utterly disgusting that these folks entered a Turkish tourism site without permission..they could have gotten permission before hand for a special opening for their case of ''time ''.
Again it has nothing to do with the money factor it is the principal of the matter...they are tresspassing....disobeying the rules and regulations..and sorry I dont care if the locals do it all the time..
I think someting like this should be sent to the Turkish Turism board and they should be made aware that this is going on..
would you just walk into or enter at a side window into a museum ?? if it was closed..I think not..
May 29th, 2008, 02:26 AM
#14
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.turkishembassy.org/index....amp;Itemid=458
http://www.tourismturkey.org/default...e&bg2=home
New York
821 United Nations Plaza
New York, NY 10017
Tel: (212) 687-2194
Fax: (212) 599-7568
E-mail: [email protected]
Los Angeles
5055 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 850
Los Angeles, CA 90036
Tel: (323) 937-8066
Fax: (323) 937-1271
E-mail: [email protected] ADDRESS :
Street:
Washington, DC
2525 Massachusetts Ave.,
Washington, DC 20008
Tel: (202) 612-6800
Fax: (202) 319-7446
E-mail: [email protected]
http://www.tourismturkey.org/default...e&bg2=home
New York
821 United Nations Plaza
New York, NY 10017
Tel: (212) 687-2194
Fax: (212) 599-7568
E-mail: [email protected]
Los Angeles
5055 Wilshire Boulevard Suite 850
Los Angeles, CA 90036
Tel: (323) 937-8066
Fax: (323) 937-1271
E-mail: [email protected] ADDRESS :
Street:
Washington, DC
2525 Massachusetts Ave.,
Washington, DC 20008
Tel: (202) 612-6800
Fax: (202) 319-7446
E-mail: [email protected]
May 29th, 2008, 02:36 AM
#15
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,823
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<<Sorry to inform you that these young adults are well past being sent messages. They are sending their own messages, most of which were expressed to me in the form of personal attacks that I haven't even bothered to mention.>>
That's really quite sad.
Reminds me of several years ago......about 2 months after 9/11 we were in Luxor with out kids (ages 8 and 9). The place was just a ghost town. Merchant stalls were boarded up and there were very, very few tourists.
It was early afternoon and we were touring the Valley of the Queens. As we were walking around I realized that we were the ONLY people (+ our guide) in the valley. A few minutes later my husband asked about Neferari's tomb and the guide said that we had missed the opening hours and the tomb was closed. But she mentioned that since tourism was so low, maybe the guards would reopen the tomb for us.
My husband and I hesitated - not really sure we were happy with that option. Luckily - my older son (who had regular Egypt Culture classes in school) told us that the tomb paintings were very delicate and that is why they only let people in during certain times and that it would be wrong to have the guards reopen it. I don't remember his exact words - but basically he was quite concerned that having the tomb opened especially for us would cause harm and he didn't want to be responsible for that.
Luckily - we were back in Luxor the next fall and arranged - the "official" way - to see Nefertari's tomb. It was spectacular and while it would have been nice to see the place by ourselves, I'm glad we waited.
That's really quite sad.
Reminds me of several years ago......about 2 months after 9/11 we were in Luxor with out kids (ages 8 and 9). The place was just a ghost town. Merchant stalls were boarded up and there were very, very few tourists.
It was early afternoon and we were touring the Valley of the Queens. As we were walking around I realized that we were the ONLY people (+ our guide) in the valley. A few minutes later my husband asked about Neferari's tomb and the guide said that we had missed the opening hours and the tomb was closed. But she mentioned that since tourism was so low, maybe the guards would reopen the tomb for us.
My husband and I hesitated - not really sure we were happy with that option. Luckily - my older son (who had regular Egypt Culture classes in school) told us that the tomb paintings were very delicate and that is why they only let people in during certain times and that it would be wrong to have the guards reopen it. I don't remember his exact words - but basically he was quite concerned that having the tomb opened especially for us would cause harm and he didn't want to be responsible for that.
Luckily - we were back in Luxor the next fall and arranged - the "official" way - to see Nefertari's tomb. It was spectacular and while it would have been nice to see the place by ourselves, I'm glad we waited.
May 29th, 2008, 02:47 AM
#16
The problem is twofold:
1. It's against the rules.
2. Word of mouth. The more people who know of the simplicity of entering the museum after hours, the more who will do this.
I say send the letter. You'll be stepping on a lot of toes in the process so here's wishing you a thick skin!
1. It's against the rules.
2. Word of mouth. The more people who know of the simplicity of entering the museum after hours, the more who will do this.
I say send the letter. You'll be stepping on a lot of toes in the process so here's wishing you a thick skin!
May 29th, 2008, 03:02 AM
#17
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,468
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The original poster , Mike Buckley does not know much about the culture of living in Turkey.
I lived in Turkey for 11 years and found the people to be wonderful.
But one must adjust to the " Culture"
At first , I stopped at every stop sign in town. A friend advised me - " Why stop if you do not see any traffic - just keep driving - everyone does "
True and I did .
Many governmental offices, post offices, museums , tourist sites never open on time - or certain time not at all - even when hours are clearly posted and they should be open. One learns about these things.
The profssor by his name is obviosly of turkish blood and knows something of the culture. His statements as related by the poster regarding as being indifferent is a normal thing - not an exception.
It is not a big thing.
Many signs of warning - routinly ignored - it is not a big problem there or to most people.
Many little stores - no one to be seen- people get what they need - leave their money or return later to pay.
This is part of life in Turkey and the poster makes a big thing about something he knows nothing about.
I would suggest that he spends his time as a tourist and enjoying the fantastic things that Turkey offers-
May 29th, 2008, 03:04 AM
#18
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,433
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cowboy1968 wrote: "being a tell-tale is also not that awfully nice."
Why not? Where do you draw the line? If you saw a man beat a woman, should you keep quiet because it is not nice to be a tell-tale?
I think it is wrong to disregard signs that say a monument is closed, as I think it is wrong to trespass. I think the wrong is compounded if the leader of an academic group effectively tells students that the rules which apply to others need not apply to them. I think it is right that the institution should be made aware of it, and I would expect the institution to take action on that report.
Why not? Where do you draw the line? If you saw a man beat a woman, should you keep quiet because it is not nice to be a tell-tale?
I think it is wrong to disregard signs that say a monument is closed, as I think it is wrong to trespass. I think the wrong is compounded if the leader of an academic group effectively tells students that the rules which apply to others need not apply to them. I think it is right that the institution should be made aware of it, and I would expect the institution to take action on that report.
May 29th, 2008, 03:30 AM
#19
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Padraig asked: Where do you draw the line? If you saw a man beat a woman, should you keep quiet because it is not nice to be a tell-tale?
Yes, that is one fine example where I would draw the line. Or write down the registration # when I witness a hit-and-run. Or when I see someone break into a house, I call the cops. Actually, I don't think it takes a degree in law or rocket science to draw the line.
No one, at least not me, said that it was "okay" to do what this professor had done.
It just got blown a bit out of proportion.
I would bit you to read the posting of molker again, who told us that he has actually LIVED in Turkey for 11 years. He seems to be the ONLY person here, who judged this incident from a Turkish perspective.
I live in a community with many Turkish immigrants who run all kind of stores in my neighborhood.
Just for fun, I told this story to my Turkish grocer and he almost dropped my bag of veggies because he would not believe that someone would inform the "Authorities", write letters to newspapers, and so on, because of this.
Yes, that is one fine example where I would draw the line. Or write down the registration # when I witness a hit-and-run. Or when I see someone break into a house, I call the cops. Actually, I don't think it takes a degree in law or rocket science to draw the line.
No one, at least not me, said that it was "okay" to do what this professor had done.
It just got blown a bit out of proportion.
I would bit you to read the posting of molker again, who told us that he has actually LIVED in Turkey for 11 years. He seems to be the ONLY person here, who judged this incident from a Turkish perspective.
I live in a community with many Turkish immigrants who run all kind of stores in my neighborhood.
Just for fun, I told this story to my Turkish grocer and he almost dropped my bag of veggies because he would not believe that someone would inform the "Authorities", write letters to newspapers, and so on, because of this.
May 29th, 2008, 03:30 AM
#20
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
response to molker comments
<<The original poster , Mike Buckley does not know much about the culture of living in Turkey. I lived in Turkey for 11 years and found the people to be wonderful.
But one must adjust to the " Culture">>
I have lived here over 11 years myself ..so I can totally relate with the cutlture..
>>At first , I stopped at every stop sign in town. A friend advised me - " Why stop if you do not see any traffic - just keep driving - everyone does "
True and I did .>>
I still stop at all stop signs, red lights and wait for the cross walks..I hope that now they have put many traffic cameras in Antalya to catch those who run the red lights and preform illegal acts when it comes to traffic laws...
<<Many governmental offices, post offices, museums , tourist sites never open on time - or certain time not at all - even when hours are clearly posted and they should be open. One learns about these things.<<
Never had a problem with opening or closings of any post office, bank or museum..and one time we visited the Antalya museum but arrived only 20 mins - 30 minutes before closing..they allowed us to view the museum only saying to be quick..
>>Many signs of warning - routinly ignored - it is not a big problem there or to most people.>>
It should be...
>>This is part of life in Turkey and the poster makes a big thing about something he knows nothing about.>>
I disagree this is a big deal in my opinion..it is tresspassing and a violation...would you try this in any museum or historical site in your country of origin ?? whether they were turkish or not..tourist or local all rules should still apply..
and like I had said before..this could have been avoided if they had gotten permission to enter...which I do not think would have been that difficult...
<<The original poster , Mike Buckley does not know much about the culture of living in Turkey. I lived in Turkey for 11 years and found the people to be wonderful.
But one must adjust to the " Culture">>
I have lived here over 11 years myself ..so I can totally relate with the cutlture..
>>At first , I stopped at every stop sign in town. A friend advised me - " Why stop if you do not see any traffic - just keep driving - everyone does "
True and I did .>>
I still stop at all stop signs, red lights and wait for the cross walks..I hope that now they have put many traffic cameras in Antalya to catch those who run the red lights and preform illegal acts when it comes to traffic laws...
<<Many governmental offices, post offices, museums , tourist sites never open on time - or certain time not at all - even when hours are clearly posted and they should be open. One learns about these things.<<
Never had a problem with opening or closings of any post office, bank or museum..and one time we visited the Antalya museum but arrived only 20 mins - 30 minutes before closing..they allowed us to view the museum only saying to be quick..
>>Many signs of warning - routinly ignored - it is not a big problem there or to most people.>>
It should be...
>>This is part of life in Turkey and the poster makes a big thing about something he knows nothing about.>>
I disagree this is a big deal in my opinion..it is tresspassing and a violation...would you try this in any museum or historical site in your country of origin ?? whether they were turkish or not..tourist or local all rules should still apply..
and like I had said before..this could have been avoided if they had gotten permission to enter...which I do not think would have been that difficult...
