Go Back  Fodor's Travel Talk Forums > Destinations > Europe
Reload this Page >

How do Europeans handle the saying of Grace at the American table?

Search

How do Europeans handle the saying of Grace at the American table?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:29 AM
  #101  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
". . . are very likely to turn out to believe that they have a duty of some kind to convert . . ."

In all my years of saying and hearing many graces, I have never run into this. Ever. Again, you're talking about proselytising. I'm talking about simply saying grace.

And as far as accusing a host of being inconsiderate for saying grace when there might be some atheists present, I think it's awfully inconsiderate for the atheists to expect a host to basically give up her custom (in her own home!) just so they don't have to hear it.
Holly_uncasdewar is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:31 AM
  #102  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7,960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thursday guess you haven't met any Jehovahs or Mormans at your door then, lucky you.. btw , they are not considered Christians by most Christains.. but sure you can't see the difference.
I also wonder how many Muslims you have really had a chance to run into.. two, maybe three.. a family ..


"Holly the problem is that people who make a habit of sayng grace regardless of whoever is present are very likely to turn out to beleive that they have a duty of some kind to convert the once born"

WOW, do you make stuff up as you go along?... I have been in many situations where grace was said and then it was "pass the peas" , not conversion talk. Honestly , perhaps you seem to have some pretty narrow views of who saids grace, only born again Christains trying to convert their innocent dinner guests.. geesh. Chip on your shoulder from a bad experience ???
Seems its not just some Christians that are "narrow minded".
justineparis is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:35 AM
  #103  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 7,960
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
How DARE a host practice her faith in her own home, perhaps she should draw the curtains for her secret prayer group meetings too, don't want to offend anyone who may wander by...

Give me a break a host may do whatever they like in their home, the guest can LEAVE if the issue is that upsetting.
Anyone who leaves because a short grace prayer is said is certainly not a friend ,but if they do end up being preached at then I AGREE that is going over the line and they could reasonably leave and not be in the wrong .
justineparis is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 09:54 AM
  #104  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,629
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
@justineparis:
"I also wonder how many Muslims you have really had a chance to run into.. two, maybe three.. a family .. "

I have a Muslim former step-son. I have a Muslim former step-son-in-law. I have visited in Muslim homes. I have attended services in a mosque. I have traveled in a number of Muslim countries. The ONLY time anyone has tried to convert me was when I encountered a couple of self-described Muslim missionaries in north-eastern Malaysia, and they didn't try very hard even though they bought me breakfast.

I'm going to ignore the rest of your diatribe.
thursdaysd is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 10:07 AM
  #105  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
thursday, on the subject of grace at dinner in someone’s home: “ . . part of the discomfort is the feeling that one has inadvertently strayed into potentially hostile territory . . .”

And yet you have chosen to enter houses of worship to attend religious services. It just doesn’t compute.
Holly_uncasdewar is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 11:25 AM
  #106  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 11,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"And yet you have chosen to enter houses of worship to attend religious services. It just doesn’t compute."

It doesn't compute because this isn't about religion or prayer, it is the posters' faux yet strangely fashionable discomfort with CHRISTIAN religion/prayer.
Bitter is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 12:17 PM
  #107  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,629
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
@Bitter - your paranoia is showing. I have on occasion CHOSEN to attend Christian services as well. Note that word? CHOSEN - and note "inadvertently" in my earlier post. I CHOOSE the locations with some care - I haven't forgotten the funeral service I attended for the mother-in-law of a former step-daughter at which the Southern Baptist preacher spent most of his sermon trying to convert the congregation instead of eulogizing the departed. "I know our dear sister is in heaven, but I'm very worried about the rest of you", or words to that effect. None of his **** business.
thursdaysd is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 12:24 PM
  #108  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Oh, great. Now you're going to tell us how a Southern Baptist preacher should give a funeral sermon?
Holly_uncasdewar is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 12:33 PM
  #109  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 11,770
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
paranoia? Maybe. Next thing you know I'll be professing that a pre-meal prayer is an ordeal, and that someone professing their faith is a form of dangerous indoctrination.
Bitter is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 02:20 PM
  #110  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Holly - There lies the issue - we should be talking about simple grace said at the table, and in most cases, that is exactly what it is. However, in some cases, grace isn't just grace - it is the begining of something more. And it isn't always overt prothletizing, sometimes it is a much more subtile form of judgement - sometimes just a cooling of the room - after grace, someone asks what church you go to and when you say that you do not attend church or are not a Christian, you get a response such as "Oh, isn't that interesting" followed by pointed looks and silence. That is when you know that as a non-Christian, you are not accepted there. You never really know how it is going to go.

My point was this uncertainty is what makes some non-regligious people uncomfortable with the practice in general. My only goal with my post was to try to explain why some non-Christians are uncomfortable with grace at the table. You can take the explanation for what it is or not. You don't have to agree or anything. It just seemed to me that some may be misinterperating the discomfort with saying grave as an anti-christian view. I wanted to throw out a possible explanation from the perspective of a non-Christian living in a predominantly Christian country.

LSKY - Of course obnoxious people come in all denominations. No one said otherwise - although I have never met a Hindu who tried to convert other people. Anyway, this conversation is specifically about saying grace at the table and how people who don't say grace handle it when in that situation. There seemed to be some misconceptions about the motivations and opinions of those who are uncomfortable with saying grace - a belief that if they are uncomfortable, that must be a sign of being anti-Christian. I simply wanted to provide a possible explanation for those who were interested in understanding where others are coming from.
november_moon is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 02:36 PM
  #111  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 26,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
"I have yet to run into non-Christians who are filled with the kind of missionary zeal that is regrettably common among certain Christian sects."

It's always difficult to look at ourselves.

Nov, "There seemed to be some misconceptions about the motivations and opinions of those who are uncomfortable with saying grace - a belief that if they are uncomfortable, that must be a sign of being anti-Christian."

That doesn't seem to be the point at all. Most people are uncomfortable being dictated to in their own home because someone decides to play the guest card. I'm the guest so you must do whatever makes me comfortable. Even though it's been pointed out that taking a deep breath and "bearing" something for 15 seconds won't kill anyone.

It's not like someone's invited you over and insisted that you watch porn with your pork.

This is just silly.
LSky is offline  
Old Feb 27th, 2013, 03:10 PM
  #112  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 962
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
We often say, "bon appetit" to start a meal (as a lot of you do probably). Our French exchange student finally asked us what Americans say before the meal. We blinked and said, "grace...or... the waiter might tell you to 'Enjoy your meal.' Or they say nothing!"

A day later I heard his friend ask him the same question, and heard him, in French, give our answer incredulously. I never found out which part was the most incredulous for him.

I grew up saying grace, and have since become a nonbeliever. I was asked a while ago to actually say the grace, and had to decline. I find comfort in holding hands with my family, and being thankful, but I can't say the words they want me to.
christycruz is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 06:37 AM
  #113  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
LSky wrote:
<i>"Most people are uncomfortable being dictated to in their own home because someone decides to play the guest card."
&
"It's not like someone's invited you over and insisted that you watch porn with your pork."</i>

Remind me never to accept an invitation to dinner from LSky

When you invite someone into your home they are literally "guests" - they are not playing the "guest card". And when you invite someone into your home the onus is on you to provide for their comfort and well-being.

I use dinner parties to connect with old friends but also to get to know new people. When I have new friends over I ask if they have any allergies or food preferences/restrictions and what they like to drink, etc. This is what a gracious host does & I don't feel like I'm being "dictated" to.

People keep asking here what the big deal is about bearing a 15 second grace. Conversely, I would ask you what's the big deal about forgoing that 15 second grace if you don't know the religious orientation of your guests?

No, grace is not "pork & porn" (which sounds like a fun party!) - but it can potentially cause discomfort as evidenced here in the comments, so why would you risk this with your <i>guests</i>? Doing so is what seems "silly" to me.
G_Hopper is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 10:14 AM
  #114  
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,882
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
People who get that upset at hearing someone say a short prayer before a meal should JUST STAY HOME.
Holly_uncasdewar is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 12:29 PM
  #115  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 27,629
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Hmmm, choice of dinner with the vitriolic and inhospitable Holly, LSky or Bitter, or staying home? No contest: home never looked better, lol.
thursdaysd is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 12:55 PM
  #116  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 23,870
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes on 1 Post
As I said in the other thread, the supreme discomfort comes when the host asks the guest (you!) to lead the table in prayer.
kerouac is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 02:00 PM
  #117  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 57,091
Received 5 Likes on 3 Posts
People who get that upset at hearing someone say a short prayer before a meal should JUST STAY HOME.>>

but if I don't know you're going to say it, Holly, how will i know to stay at home?

and none of you "grace-sayers" have answered my question - why do you say grace before meals, and not at other times? why not when you have a cup of tea, or a beer, or for that matter when you open the curtains in the morning? what about when you're out and about and, say, go into McDs? do you say it then?

why single out meal-times?
annhig is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 02:11 PM
  #118  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm out. Peace.
november_moon is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 02:27 PM
  #119  
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 4,540
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anne, we do say a sort of grace before having a glass of wine.

It’s along the lines of “God, I could use a drink!”

The popping cork nicely punctuates the end of grace.
Peter_S_Aus is offline  
Old Feb 28th, 2013, 02:42 PM
  #120  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 5,056
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I've never been in an English home that says Grace - and I do have Christian friends of various flavours.

I have been in homes of non-English Christians in the UK when grace has been said.

I just sit quietly, don't bow my head (why would I do that?) and wait for them to finish before we all start our meal. On that level, it's fine, their home, their religion, it doesn't hurt me to sit quiet for a short time while they do something important to them.

However, yes, I do usually get a little anxious during it. For the exact reasons stated above. For me,
1) There has always been an expectation that I am also Christian and will join in. This is because pretty much everyone they know shares their belief and customs, they often don't socialise much (or at all) with English people so I guess it's sometimes surprising to them to come across someone who doesn't. I don't like people making religious presumptions about me; I find it irritating, even though I know they mean no harm by it. I think if you are going to say Grace around strangers it would be more polite to say something like 'We are going to say Grace now, please join in if you wish' first, rather than just launching into it. Make it an invitation rather than an assumed 'something we are all going to automatically participate in'.
2) On this line, I have twice been asked, as the guest, to say the grace. This puts me on the spot and makes me very uncomfortable. When I tried to politely 'pass', I wasn't allowed to. I ended up having to explain why, before they would accept I didn't want to.
3)That's normally the end of it. But sometimes, it isn't. sometimes this to being questioned on why aren't I Christian, have I ever been to church, no? oh they can't believe it!, would I like to come to church? How can I live without god? Why don't I come to their church? Why don't I try it, it's fun, I might enjoy it? (which is the oddest reason I can think of to persuade an atheist to go to church, but I've heard it more than once). I don't go to dinner to discuss religion. They have their beliefs, I have mine, we should respect each other, I'd rather talk about something else as I know they aren't going to get anywhere converting me, and I have no interest in coverting them, so what's the point?

So that's why I get a slight sinking feeling in my stomach when people say grace. What's going to come? Usually nothing, and that's fine, but sometimes people have gone on to make me feel uncomfortable/attacked/judged/patronised.
nona1 is offline  


Contact Us - Manage Preferences Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Your Privacy Choices -