nukesafe

No Chartley, antiseptic wipes are usually not used before meals.

In American homes EVERYONE washes their hands immediately before dinner. Unfortunately, you cannot check on the accuracy of this statement, as the ULTIMATE AUTHORITY on the subject, my Mother, is now dead.

flanneruk

"in the UK, which has a state religion, it's a very peripheral part. Discuss"

Don't get me started. But now you have...

Our national conceit is that religion knows its place (peripheral to most, central to some) and we don't hold with hypocritical nonsense like a Constitution (a preposterous device for eliminating democracy America shares with Communist Russia and Nazi Germany)

So we don't (outside the lunatic fringe of BBC "Have your say" web feedback) go into hysterics at the thought of our Head of State being nominal Governor of a Christian denomination, or of most of our national institutions (from St Stephen's and Holyrood Palaces, through most Oxbridge colleges and major public schools to St Thomas' hospital and our legal Terms) being essentially Christian (worse: Catholic) inventions. Or your (probably 90% irreligious) choir regarding Truro (is that right?) Cathedral as their home venue.

The non-nutters among us (including the overwhelming majority of Muslims, Jews, Hindus and even Dawkinsesque agnostics) regard our Christian heritage as part of the national backcloth, are a great deal happier we celebrate Christmas than The Holidays and get bloody pissed off when the BBC insists on pretending Julius Caesar invaded in 55 BCE, or that William invaded in 1066 CE.

Because no-one (least of all the faithful in the pews) thinks it matters very much, we really don't get upset if our annual beanfeast with colleagues starts with a Grace we don't believe in. And, by and large, most of us at Mass or Eucharist on Sundays don't indulge in this "Christians are persecuted here in a way others aren't" nonsense.

Such fatuous self-indulgence demeans the real persecutions Christians suffer elsewhere.

annhig

and Amen to that.

Gretchen

Just because someone "said" you shouldn't eat before saying grace doesn't mean it's going to happen. What's the worry. Get over it.
And while we don't, many in our family do. It really doesn't hurt.

november_moon

"In American homes, are antiseptic wipes used before or after prayers are said and hands held?"

No, but Americans don't have cooties, so it doesn't matter.

Bitter

Annhig: Huh? My point is not necessarily aimed at you, though perhaps you see yourself in my comments. I don't know.

What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd. It's like guffawing for the hundredth time at a trite GWB joke. It shows that you (proverbial) are in on the joke and one of the cool "liberal" kids.

thursdaysd

"What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd. "

Speak for your own friends and acquaintances. I certainly don't know anyone who behaves like that.

annhig

Annhig: Huh? My point is not necessarily aimed at you, though perhaps you see yourself in my comments. I don't know. >>

If you read my posts, you would clearly see that I did not see myself in your comments, which are not applicable to anyone here.

<<What I do know is that making fun of Christians and/or Christianity is a thing that folks do to be part of the in crowd.>>

do you have any evidence for this please?

Bitter

"Speak for your own friends and acquaintances. I certainly don't know anyone who behaves like that"

Really? How much thought have you given that?
If you are from the US, then you know that disdain for Christians is widely accepted in our culture. And, if you've thought about it, know that if the same attitudes were exhibited against other religions, the attitudes or persons would be vilified as bigotry or bigots. Did you every ask yourself why those criticizing Christianity get a pass?

And did you ever ask yourself why folks here profess that they would be uncomfortable or worse to have to sit through a prayer?

Think about it. If I don't share your religion, am ambivalent, or even find it a bit silly, why would I experience discomfort? Answer: I wouldn't. A reasonable person would be a bit bored or confused at worse, or mildly curious, but that's about it.

thursdaysd

I not only live in the US (although I grew up in the UK), I live in the Bible Belt (NC), and no, disdain for Christianity is definitely not widely prevalent nor widely accepted in the US. What is widely prevalent in the US is an entitled attitude among Christians, amply demonstrated here.

Holly_uncasdewar

Anyone who finds it "offensive" to hear someone say a prayer to God before a meal - out loud and in their presence! - really needs to have their head examined.

nukesafe

Now that is a truly narrow minded comment, Holly. There are many who truly do not believe in a supreme being, and consider praying, silently or aloud, to be foolish. They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way.

Holly_uncasdewar

Your comment is about as narrow minded as it gets, nukesafe.

Bitter

"They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way."

That isn't embarrassment you are feeling. It is condescension.

LSky

"There are many who truly do not believe in a supreme being, and consider praying, silently or aloud, to be foolish. They feel uncomfortable, feeling embarrassed for their friends, whom they had considered adult thinking persons, behaving in such an irrational way."

There are many things people do that are irrational. I think considering a pet the same as a child is irrational but I don't protest if someone believes this. I like my friends and family and think it's best to let them have their thing.

I have a feeling some folks just don't like other people much so they have all these little hoops for them to jump through. That seems silly to me but it's their life.

PatrickLondon

Anyway, what I was taught was that it's rude to start eating before everyone's served with the food in front of them. Those in my family who say grace (no handholding, where on earth did that come from?) quite often do so before dishing up is complete (which is another reason why they don't hang about emoting about it, they don't want the sprouts to get cold).

>>Patrick, BTW, clearly went to an exceptionally laconic college.<<

King's. It nods to the past, but somewhat briskly, on occasion. I think it was rarely more (and then only on special occasions) than <i>Benedictus benedicat, per Jesum Christum Dominum nostrum. Amen.</i>

But I do see on a quick Google that some showier places make a rather more papistical performance out of it. Those Fenland draughts tend to encourage rather more dispatch.

november_moon

"Think about it. If I don't share your religion, am ambivalent, or even find it a bit silly, why would I experience discomfort? Answer: I wouldn't. A reasonable person would be a bit bored or confused at worse, or mildly curious, but that's about it."

To answer your question Bitter, from my perspective at least - it isn't the prayer itself that leads to the discomfort. It is the can of worms that the prayer could open that does it -that is what puts non-religious people on edge. Religion can be an extremely touchy subject.

In my experience, there are a fair number of Christians who just can't or won't leave people alone to believe or not as they so choose. Conversion and being saved is part of the religion, so I guess it comes with the territory. I have lost friends over religion because they just could not accept that no, I am not a Christian and their repeated attempts to save me are not only futile, but after awhile, insulting. I've just had to distance myself from certain people. Then there are the less-dramatic situations, which play out over and over again - religion comes up, the non-Christians are "outed" and there is an issue. It gets tiresome, and in social situations, sometimes you just never know how it is going to go. A nice dinner can turn extremely uncomfortable very quickly.

Like I said in a previous post, I was taught to just go with the flow, and if people want to pray before dinner, I am totally good with that. But - I understand how this makes some non-Christians very uncomfortable because of the judgement that can come along after the prayer when religion becomes the topic of discussion at the dinner table. I try to take the straightforward, diplomatic approach when things start to get uncomfortable. It usually works, but not always - and sometimes I am not in the mood for diplomacy and against my better judgement, end up in a religious debate at the dinner table, which may or may be preferable to the debate over gun control that I let myself get dragged into at the previous dinner.

Holly_uncasdewar

nm: You're talking about proselytising and religious debate at the dinner table. We were talking about the simple act of saying grace. Big diff.

LSky

"In my experience, there are a fair number of Christians who just can't or won't leave people alone to believe or not as they so choose."

In my experience, that comes in all flavors; atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Christians, pet lovers, football fans and other zealots. Some people are just obnoxious.
It’s easy to solve this. Be who you are but don’t be obnoxious.

thursdaysd

Good post, november_moon. I agree, part of the discomfort is the feeling that one has inadvertently strayed into potentially hostile territory. Another part is annoyance that the host is assuming that everyone present is a Christian, and their kind of Christian at that.

Holly - the problem is that people who make a habit of saying grace regardless of who is present are very likely to turn out to believe that they have a duty of some kind to convert the once-born.

LSky - I have yet to run into non-Christians who are filled with the kind of missionary zeal that is regrettably common among certain Christian sects. Aside from some Muslims, at least. Neither Buddhists nor Hindus (you are supposed to be born into that faith, as are Jews), make a habit of pursuing converts.

I would add that there is a big difference between the situations flanner and Patrick are talking about - a fair-sized public gathering where an ancient foundation is continuing a ritual in place for hundreds of years - and a dinner party in a private house, where the host is practicing her faith without consideration for the other people there.