On a forum concerning my little island, a debate on tipping has been raging for four days.

In France there is an obligatory 10% charge included in the bill and collected by the establishment, banked and taxed by the government.

This charge is necessarily built into the prices displayed on menus, so you if you see 15 euros for a steak on the menu, you will see 15 euros on your bill, not 16.50.

At the end of your meal If you feel like it, you can leave some cash for the wait staff.

Unfortunately the obligatory charge is called "service compris" which is leading numerous small brained individuals to conclude that this means the tip is included, leading to the two following erroneous conclusions:

a) If the wait staff are not worthy of a tip, you can demand your "service compris" back.
b) If the wait staff are worth of a tip, you have already given them 10% of your check, so don't tip.

No end of explanation will convince them otherwise...

Someone thinks that you can ask for the service back? Does said person(s) ask for admission back if s/he doesn't like the art at the museum too?

It doesn't sound complicated at all but the public is a many headed idiot.

According to Businessdictionary.com there are three definitions:
Definition 1
Bank fee charged for specific services or as a penalty for not meeting certain criteria.

Definition 2
Percentage of a hotel bill (as much as 10 to 20 percent) added to the total bill, often in lieu of tipping.

Definition 3
Amount paid by tenants for general cleaning and maintenance of the building occupied by them.

Definition 2 would be why some believe it to be the tip.

If it said: service NON compris

Definition
Mainland Europe hotel or restaurant term indicating that service charges are not included in the bill, therefore a tip is expected. French for, service not included.

Tipping brings out the worst in many people, I'm just not sure why. I work in a service industry so it's second nature to me. If someone treats me well, serves me well or is just plain nice, I will tip them. It doesn't have to be money. I have bought a nice bouquet of flowers for a person working in a hotel, where a monetary tip would have been inappropriate. I think she like them and took them home.

I hear this argument all the time for restaurants in France. I'm with you, I don't think that the waiter sees any part of that extra 10% that was added, sure, he makes a better wage than waiters in the US, and in the US we tip bigger, from 15-22%...in France I think it is more like 5-10%.

I also hear that we (travelers) are wrecking it by tipping. I have to think that if the waiter works with me on my pathetic french, helps explain something on the menu or wine list, and does it in a professional and friendly demeanor, he should receive something from ME. I also hear that they look down on us for tipping, but I have to say, I've never received anything except a genuine smile.

Not complicated at all, but I think half the British expats in the Dordogne are totally confused about tipping, and always in their favor. It's embarrassing to be in restaurants with them and hear them scolding each other for rounding out the bill or leaving a few lousy extra euros. Thinking they deserve to get the 10% back if they're not satisfied is preposterous, though.

Well, it looks to me like the information in OP's question on the St. Bart's board may have not been accurate so the discussion resulted in complete confusion. The question was two parts, one of which had do to with a 10% surcharge to a restaurant's bill (on top of the menu's listed price, which may not be a correct interpretation), and the other had to do with paying gratuities in cash because they would no longer be accepted by the restaurant on a credit card. Then, of course, those that don't like the restaurant weighed in . . . sound familiar?

http://www.sbhonline.com/St-Barts-bb...id/20217/tp/1/

So is tipping in St. Barts the same as in Paris?

Perhaps its because in Britain a lot of restaurants add an 'optional service charge' of 12.5%. You can ask that this be removed from your bill, but it is automatically added. It goes to the restaurant to be distributed as they see fit. If you want to leave some for the server directly you can. you can also request this 'optional' charge be removed and tip as you see fit.

Different cultures do things differently...but maybe this is the confustion with brits?

merry christmas all!!

I was under the impression that "service compris" meant that both the VAT and a fee for the resto staff were included. Tips are in addition to the service fee, if one wishes to leave one.

Have I been misinformed?

What is it with tipping? You don't tip the checkout operator in the supermarket, you don't tip the cashier in the department store, shoe shop, or petrol station, the person who stamps your book at the library, the receptionist at the doctor's or whatever. Why should hairdressers and waiters be any different? What's the point of putting "£7.00" on a menu if you will be charged £8.05 on the bill? The price you see should be the price you pay in a restaurant just like everywhere else. Just like the "cover charge", service charges should be made illegal. When I sit down in a restaurant, I expect to be able to use the knife and fork and have the food brought out to me without having to pay extra. I expect to drink the wine from a glass, not the bottle. If they want to charge extra for bread, let them tell me, and I'll decide whether or not I want to pay some ludicrous amount for a bun or a couple of slices of a baguette. People always say, when this discussion arises, that if you get exceptionally good service you should tip. When did you last get "exceptionally good" service? Is this when they don't tip the soup down your back? If the waiters and hairdressers cannot exist on the wages they are paid, either bring in minimum wages, or let them negotiate a living wage with the owners.

B says,

>....service charges should be made illegal....... If the waiters and hairdressers cannot exist on the wages they are paid,.......<

Without a service charge, how does the shop owner pay the staff's wages?

>When did you last get "exceptionally good" service?<

Oct, 2009.

I must be misinformed. My undersanding has always been that in France the tip is included, be it listed as "service compris" or not. One could leave the coins from change recieved back if service was especially good.

Locals, such as Kerouac, who also have some experience with the service industry, seem to have confirmed this.

Has this changed?

And I think it would be crass to ask for a refund of the 10%. Don't go back.

It is the law that service is included in the price in French restaurants. I am not small-brained and disagree with the OP as I do consider that the tip is included, and I am quite well-informed on the topic and French law, as I've read it and know what is included.

The issue which is just opinion is whether "service" means "tip". It does to me,as the only reason I ever "tip" someone is for what is supposedly service. This isn't being small-brained, it is simply opinion but it seems quite logical to me if you are going to claim that you tip people for good service that if service is included,that is the same concept as a "tip" in countries where service is not included (like the US). Whenever they don't expect you to tip in the US in some restaurants, they add the service to the bill and call it that (some call it "gratuity" in the US, which is ironic as they call it that when it is mandatory). Restaurants do that sometimes for large parties in the US.

I do sometimes add a little extra in France for very good service, but I never "tip" as much on top of the bill as I do in the US as I know service is included and is not in the US. I don't do that routinely.

So the debate is simply over what people think a tip is and what service is,that's all, it isn't people being small-brained. As for St Bart's -- I have no idea and don't a fig about what people do in St Barts.

As for whether the waitstaff ever "sees" that service charge in France (which is greater than 10%, but maybe it's 10% in St Barts), I don't know French retaurant industry but think that's a simplistic way of viewing salary and mandatory benefits,no matter what. MInimum wages and mandated benefits are higher in France than in the US,for example, so even if the waitstaff didn't "see" the service charge directly,they are getting it in their compensation in one way or another.

There is no possibility to disagree with the OP in that case, since it's not a matter of opinion but the law.
"Service included" does not mean that a "tip" is included. There is no law, that forces anyone to leave a tip.
A simple as that.

J_R_Hartley

Perhaps all my French friends are cheapskates, but when asked they say that the tip is included in the service fee, which I thought was 15%.

To be fair me old china, I was baffled by this in France.

I got my head around it quick enough, but it isn't obvious (and I have passable French).

I had to ask. Remember that a lot of folks are scared to ask these sorts of questions.

Now I leave a few bob for the waiter, but much less than if I were tipping.

Does anyone understand tipping?

"Without a service charge, how does the shop owner pay the staff's wages?" asks ira.
I didn't mean that the cost of the item on the menu should just be the cost of the food + cost of cooking it! I meant that the "service charge" should be built into the cost of the item on the menu. As I said, it is a stupid waste of time to write £7.00 on the menu, then write "service charge 15%" when it is simpler (and less mathematically challenging) to write £8.05 on menu in the first place. I am not at all interested in £7.00, if I am going to be charged £8.05 in the long run. The restaurant owner simply puts all his costs into each item on the menu so that he can make a reasonable profit and pay his staff a reasonable wage without the need for tips.

<i>To be fair me old china, I was baffled by this in France.</i>

Same rule applies to Germany according to my Berliner cousin who is in the service industry (he drives a taxi).