Here's the lastest wardrobe rule from the choir teacher for the trip to Italy!!!
Mar 9th, 2008, 04:25 AM
#41
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 4,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>>>>
3. Can anyone think of a parent in Europe not telling the teacher to mind his own business when making "rules" about what kids have to wear in their free time? (within the lines of basic decency)
>>>>>
Yes!
as far as i can tell, this is an american school, american parents and american students. what is the relevance of how a european parent would deal with their school's rules? anyway, most would likely just follow them (as probably the case in the US).
at least here in britain, we have uniforms so we are not used to having no school dress rules. i'm not saying uniforms would be worn on a school trip...just saying we are well used to having rules for this sort of thing. why on earth would you think the natural reaction would be for every european to tell the teachers to mind their own business when it comes to dress rules?
btw, i'm not saying i agree with the rules....i just find cowboy's list of questions a bit bizarre.
3. Can anyone think of a parent in Europe not telling the teacher to mind his own business when making "rules" about what kids have to wear in their free time? (within the lines of basic decency)
>>>>>
Yes!
as far as i can tell, this is an american school, american parents and american students. what is the relevance of how a european parent would deal with their school's rules? anyway, most would likely just follow them (as probably the case in the US).
at least here in britain, we have uniforms so we are not used to having no school dress rules. i'm not saying uniforms would be worn on a school trip...just saying we are well used to having rules for this sort of thing. why on earth would you think the natural reaction would be for every european to tell the teachers to mind their own business when it comes to dress rules?
btw, i'm not saying i agree with the rules....i just find cowboy's list of questions a bit bizarre.
Mar 9th, 2008, 05:22 AM
#42
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Walkinaround: My point, if it has been lost to you, is that there is a huge fuss being made about a rather simple matter: Bunch of kids going from one industrialized country to another, and have to wear something in their free time.
According to your and MissPrism's intervention, UK is an exemption and I stand corrected.
But where ever kids can wear what they want to school (Isn't that everywhere else in Continental Europe?), I cannot see parents handwringing what the kids are going to wear in their free time abroad. Probably the same outfits as at home.
So I'm still waiting for a mom from Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, France etc. going into handwringing because her 15yo son wants to wear jeans and tennis shoes in Rome.
According to your and MissPrism's intervention, UK is an exemption and I stand corrected.
But where ever kids can wear what they want to school (Isn't that everywhere else in Continental Europe?), I cannot see parents handwringing what the kids are going to wear in their free time abroad. Probably the same outfits as at home.
So I'm still waiting for a mom from Belgium, Sweden, Netherlands, Germany, France etc. going into handwringing because her 15yo son wants to wear jeans and tennis shoes in Rome.
Mar 9th, 2008, 05:43 AM
#43
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 4,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Original poster has STILL not responded to the question: why has she (or any other parent) not confronted the teacher with the unreasonableness of these wardrobe dictates????
Is it because said parent(s) might have to take a few hours off from work to communicate directly with the teacher, rather than complaining to an internet forum??
I would like to ask that all responses from Fodorites cease until missypie tells us what concrete steps she has taken Face-to-Face to deal with this. I also worked full-time when my children were this age, and made time for "face time" with their teachers when issues arose.
This isn't rocket science. And all the forum rants in the world won't do as much good as half and hour of sensible in-person communication.
Is it because said parent(s) might have to take a few hours off from work to communicate directly with the teacher, rather than complaining to an internet forum??
I would like to ask that all responses from Fodorites cease until missypie tells us what concrete steps she has taken Face-to-Face to deal with this. I also worked full-time when my children were this age, and made time for "face time" with their teachers when issues arose.
This isn't rocket science. And all the forum rants in the world won't do as much good as half and hour of sensible in-person communication.
Mar 9th, 2008, 06:25 AM
#44
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,614
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Josephina, you don't get to say "end of story". You are not a Fodor's moderator here, to the best of my knowledge. A Fodor's moderator who thought this thread was inappropriate in any way could close it to further posts or delete it. No one has done this yet. If you open a thread, begin reading it and get to a certain point and don't like it/are disgusted/find it inappropriate, close it and MOVE ON. If you find it really offensive, e-mail the Fodors editors and let them know why it offends you so much. Your postings on this thread are not helpful to the OP. I'm with whoever said "vent away" to the OP.
To Missypie, I'd say the HS choir teacher is obviously dealing with some control issues and your son is a shrewd judge of what's important and what's not. Brava for raising a kid so aware!
BC
To Missypie, I'd say the HS choir teacher is obviously dealing with some control issues and your son is a shrewd judge of what's important and what's not. Brava for raising a kid so aware!
BC
Mar 9th, 2008, 01:58 PM
#45
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 14,748
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What bookchick said.
Maybe missypie is shy, or maybe school doesn't take complaints lightly; who knows? But to imply that she is a bad parent because she won't take time off to go talk to the choir director is ludicrous. We don't even know if she has a job!
Let the moderators do their jobs. If one doesn't enjoy participating in a thread, there is no need for one to join in.
Maybe missypie is shy, or maybe school doesn't take complaints lightly; who knows? But to imply that she is a bad parent because she won't take time off to go talk to the choir director is ludicrous. We don't even know if she has a job!
Let the moderators do their jobs. If one doesn't enjoy participating in a thread, there is no need for one to join in.
Mar 9th, 2008, 08:38 PM
#46
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,176
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Missypie,
I can't wait to hear about the trip afterwards! What a nutty last minute rule, especially odd given he would have been looking at a class full of kids in sneakers when he said it.
I'd be irritated by the new rules. These things need to be spelled out well in advance.
I can't wait to hear about the trip afterwards! What a nutty last minute rule, especially odd given he would have been looking at a class full of kids in sneakers when he said it.
I'd be irritated by the new rules. These things need to be spelled out well in advance.
Mar 9th, 2008, 09:04 PM
#47
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,337
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In case you're wondering (as obviously the choir teacher is unaware), those more lightweight athletic shoes ARE what everyone under 40 wears in Italy, as far as we could tell- other than calf-high boots for women (which would be too much to pack).
I followed bad advice (from this forum!) a few years back and brought dressier shoes to Paris. Even though they were broken in, they weren't meant for walking all day on cobblestones or climbing Notre Dame. And, to add insult to injury, everyone around us in Paris was wearing the shoes that I would have brought if I'd simply not listened to the advice!
If your children own Skechers or Pumas in a neutral color, they'll be fine. Leave the full Nike running or basketball shoes at home, but otherwise, don't worry about it. No one should wear SAS shoes in high school.
I followed bad advice (from this forum!) a few years back and brought dressier shoes to Paris. Even though they were broken in, they weren't meant for walking all day on cobblestones or climbing Notre Dame. And, to add insult to injury, everyone around us in Paris was wearing the shoes that I would have brought if I'd simply not listened to the advice!
If your children own Skechers or Pumas in a neutral color, they'll be fine. Leave the full Nike running or basketball shoes at home, but otherwise, don't worry about it. No one should wear SAS shoes in high school.
Mar 9th, 2008, 10:45 PM
#48
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No need to slam missypie and assume she won't take time off from work to talk with the teacher. She is just venting about a travel issue, on a travel forum. Very appropriate, I think.
Sometimes adults in our children's lives act in ways that we don't understand and it is hard to know when to let it go and when to confront them about it. You can't agree with everyone all the time and it also is not productive to confront someone every time you disagree. You have to pick and choose your battles, which is why Missypie, her daughter and son are all dealing with this in a different way.
When my son was about 9, he played soccer for a very gung-ho coach. One time when it was raining hard out, I suggested he wear a baseball cap to practice, to shield his eyeglasses from the rain so he could see. Well, about 5 minutes into the practice, the coach came over, grabbed the hat off his head and said, "this is soccer, not baseball, we don't wear hats". I was watching from the sidelines and was stunned.
It was pouring rain and my son couldn't see through his glasses. The assistant coach was standing near me and his eyes bugged out. I was faced with what to do. I vehemently disagreed with what the coach did, but generally respected him and his treatment of the boys. I chose to say nothing, but did mention to my son afterwards that I saw the coach take off his hat. I just said, "I don't know why, but I guess coach xxx doesn't want you guys wearing hats at practice", to which he shrugged and nodded. I really thought the coach was an idiot about this, but I figured it was a life lesson for my son that we have to adapt to other people and also that he should have respect for the coach even if he didn't agree with him.
Sometimes adults in our children's lives act in ways that we don't understand and it is hard to know when to let it go and when to confront them about it. You can't agree with everyone all the time and it also is not productive to confront someone every time you disagree. You have to pick and choose your battles, which is why Missypie, her daughter and son are all dealing with this in a different way.
When my son was about 9, he played soccer for a very gung-ho coach. One time when it was raining hard out, I suggested he wear a baseball cap to practice, to shield his eyeglasses from the rain so he could see. Well, about 5 minutes into the practice, the coach came over, grabbed the hat off his head and said, "this is soccer, not baseball, we don't wear hats". I was watching from the sidelines and was stunned.
It was pouring rain and my son couldn't see through his glasses. The assistant coach was standing near me and his eyes bugged out. I was faced with what to do. I vehemently disagreed with what the coach did, but generally respected him and his treatment of the boys. I chose to say nothing, but did mention to my son afterwards that I saw the coach take off his hat. I just said, "I don't know why, but I guess coach xxx doesn't want you guys wearing hats at practice", to which he shrugged and nodded. I really thought the coach was an idiot about this, but I figured it was a life lesson for my son that we have to adapt to other people and also that he should have respect for the coach even if he didn't agree with him.
Mar 10th, 2008, 04:53 AM
#49
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In response to the "what would a European parent do..." question, My 13 y.o.daughter leaves on Friday for a school ski trip to France. We have been given a packing list by school, which simply suggests layers, but no jeans, and "suitable" shoes for an Alpine resort (ski-wear is listed separately). There will be a disco on the last night, and is it "suggested that pupils may want to pack accordingly." Now you know.
Mar 10th, 2008, 06:39 AM
#50
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,874
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Travelgirl2 hit the nail on the head when she said a parent has to choose her battles. I chose to confront the choir teacher on his "each student will carry his or her own passport at all times" rule. I emailed the Italian consulate in NY and a deputy consulate guy emailed back, saying that he advised that the kids carry copies of their passports and leave the orignals with a chaperone or in a safe. After that, the choir teacher changed his rule. I have the child who WOULD lose his passport, so this was a more important issue to me than shoes or pants.
In addition, my dancer daughter has had to miss a couple of the mandatory group rehearsals due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts, and I had to sweet talk the director over that. Again, more important for my daughter to be able to perform with the group than to lead the charge for jeans and sneakers.
We packed this weekend. My daughter did use the occasion to get me to purchase a new pair of black slacks for her, but that's fine. When we were getting her clothes together, she said that the director said they should really put some thought into their outfits and "don't just wear what you wear to school." What does he think the kids own? What they wear to school. My kids own (1) school clothes, (2) church clothes, and (3) clothes for their sports/activites. They do not have 10, or even 3 days, worth of "business casual" clothes.
What will be will be. They will have a great time. Thanks everyone for allowing me to vent here.
In addition, my dancer daughter has had to miss a couple of the mandatory group rehearsals due to unavoidable scheduling conflicts, and I had to sweet talk the director over that. Again, more important for my daughter to be able to perform with the group than to lead the charge for jeans and sneakers.
We packed this weekend. My daughter did use the occasion to get me to purchase a new pair of black slacks for her, but that's fine. When we were getting her clothes together, she said that the director said they should really put some thought into their outfits and "don't just wear what you wear to school." What does he think the kids own? What they wear to school. My kids own (1) school clothes, (2) church clothes, and (3) clothes for their sports/activites. They do not have 10, or even 3 days, worth of "business casual" clothes.
What will be will be. They will have a great time. Thanks everyone for allowing me to vent here.
Mar 10th, 2008, 06:52 AM
#51
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 552
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aren't the children lucky to have a choir teacher interested enough in them to take them on a trip to Europe? It seems to me that this consideration should outweigh all the trivial ones about shoes and other attire.
As for the mother whose son wasn't allowed to wear a baseball cap playing soccer - how on earth was he supposed to head the ball while wearing a cap? And what was he doing wearing glasses while playing soccer anyway? Isn't that dangerous?
As for the mother whose son wasn't allowed to wear a baseball cap playing soccer - how on earth was he supposed to head the ball while wearing a cap? And what was he doing wearing glasses while playing soccer anyway? Isn't that dangerous?
Mar 10th, 2008, 07:10 AM
#52
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,813
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sure, the kids are lucky to be taking this trip. So is the choir teacher. S/he may also be getting paid to do it. That has nothing to do with the 'what to pack' issue or how late in the day parents were informed of changes.
Neat, clean, respectful (and by that I mean no underwear or private body parts showing and no rude t-shirts) and appropriate for the occasion is all that should matter. If the choir teacher thinks that teenagers in Italy dress differently than teenagers in the US do, they're misinformed. It actually is possible for a teacher to be wrong, you know.
Neat, clean, respectful (and by that I mean no underwear or private body parts showing and no rude t-shirts) and appropriate for the occasion is all that should matter. If the choir teacher thinks that teenagers in Italy dress differently than teenagers in the US do, they're misinformed. It actually is possible for a teacher to be wrong, you know.
Mar 10th, 2008, 07:12 AM
#53
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,258
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He was wearing sports glass (rec specs). They usually mostly do drills such as passing/shooting at practice. Anyway, I thought it more important that he be able to see and possibly miss heading a ball that soggy, rainy day.
Mar 13th, 2008, 06:38 AM
#55
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 4,874
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We took my son to the airport at 4 am today. I took a picture of the director's shoes-no velcro-black rubbery looking slip ons. He looked like a crew chief at a fast food restaurant-I think I've seen those very shoes advertised in Nation's Restaurant News.
Everyone was excited and I'm sure they'll have a great time, no matter what they're wearing.
Everyone was excited and I'm sure they'll have a great time, no matter what they're wearing.
Mar 13th, 2008, 09:25 PM
#57
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has this request come home in writing from the teacher or is your child's version of what they think the teacher wants. In my experience they can sometimes be VERY different and I am the mother of two teenagers. Hopefully it just means to pack(or wear on the plane)a pair of comfortable walking shoes as stated, not brand new shoes.
Mar 13th, 2008, 10:13 PM
#59
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being that I have a 17 year old, I'm still laughing at the earlier comment "they shouldn't lace up; they should slip on and have elastic" LOL
Major control issues I'd say....and clueless.
Major control issues I'd say....and clueless.
Mar 13th, 2008, 10:37 PM
#60
While the teacher really is over the top and definitely nutty -- the "they shouldn't lace up; they should slip on and have elastic" bit does have a practical basis.
I'd guess the teacher has heard travel "gurus" say that lace up shoes are a pain at airport security - having to take them off and put them back on/lace them up again. And having elastic would make them more secure in the case of an emergency on board.
I know slides are not the best idea on a plane because they won't stay on in an emergency - but I wear them anyway because they are so much easier off/on. I rationalize that if there is an emergency at 35000 feet, my shoes won't matter one way or the other.
I really think the choir teacher has heard bits and pieces of reasonable travel advice and misinterpreted it.
I'd guess the teacher has heard travel "gurus" say that lace up shoes are a pain at airport security - having to take them off and put them back on/lace them up again. And having elastic would make them more secure in the case of an emergency on board.
I know slides are not the best idea on a plane because they won't stay on in an emergency - but I wear them anyway because they are so much easier off/on. I rationalize that if there is an emergency at 35000 feet, my shoes won't matter one way or the other.
I really think the choir teacher has heard bits and pieces of reasonable travel advice and misinterpreted it.
