Celiaanne

I think the rules are silly, outdated and impractical.

But, I am also amazed at the people who feel it is OK to tell their children to just disregard/disobey/defy what their teacher and sponsor of the group tells them.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to discuss this with the teacher and impress him with your travel experience so that he changes his mind.

Sue_xx_yy

"The big shoes are a must-they're part of the performance attire (along with a full tuxedo)."

With respect to dress for the last dinner out, you might point out to the teacher that the alternate term for 'full tux' is 'dinner jacket'.

"But, I am also amazed at the people who feel it is OK to tell their children to just disregard/disobey/defy what their teacher and sponsor of the group tells them. "

Celianne, do you recall what happened in a place called Jonestown, Guyana, back in '78?

Okay, so the teacher isn't telling them to drink Kool-Aid laced with cyanide. But the point is apt. When the instruction is clearly contrary to the health and well-being of the students, I'd say it is the parents' duty to tell their kids to ignore it, and wear well-broken in shoes. (By the way, I think your idea of talking to the choir teacher would normally be the right course, but with 6 days to go, it must be assumed that he or she will not see reason in time.)

Celiaanne

Sue, Of course I remember, but I have a very difficult time relating that tragedy to what choir kids wear on a field trip. I just think the teacher deserves respect.

CarolA

And the parents don't deserve respect??? The teacher announces a wardrobe rule change 6 days before departure. Lets' see I guess ALL the parents have noting better to do then drop everything to comply with this late request. And of course they all have extra money laying around to buy these shoes???

Sorry, but the teacher is reaping what they sow. You do not spring this less then a week before departure if you expected it to be complied with. What's next??? Announcements the night before???

I speak from experience.... I have been there done that and this move is not acceptable. If the teacher wanted this the time to make it known was back when he/she was making things like "performance outfits" known. Not less then a week before departure.

josephina

I have a big problem with any parent who is bringing a dress issue to a forum rather than meeting sensibly with the teacher and then keeping her mouth shut.

If you don't like the rules,I am totally supportive in keeping your kids home. If not, put up and shut up.

tuscanlifeedit

Shut up? We don't come here to shut up! We come to talk over all things travel; sometimes we talk them over and over. Missypie has been keeping us filled in on the saga of the choir teacher and the trip to Italy. She isn't looking for our advice on parenting. This guy has been a PIA and Missypie makes it clear that she came to rant.

Geez, I am amazed at the mean spirited posts on this thread. Missypie came to rant and I for one say, you go girl! Rant away.

josephina

If Missypie view this as a problem, she needs to solve the problem. Again, if she feels this chaperone is less than capable, pull her kids out of the trip.

End of story.

jdraper

Goodness, this has certainly gotten ugly for no real good reason at all. Missypie was ranting, just that, and nothing more. She is the arbitor of what is good for her children, not a chaperone who obviously has not thought this through. She can hardly tell her children they cannot go on the trip over a pair of shoes for goodness sakes. How would you like to spend time with those disgruntled teens after making that decision?

I believe I would simply tell the chaperone that you would prefer that your children wear comfortable shoes rather than brand new shoes and let her know you wll be sending your children with athletic shoes for the times that they are not performing. I believe this chaperone may have seen some misguided statement, perhaps on this forum, indicating that nobody in Europe wears athletic shoes and believes she is doing the right thing. Perhaps when you explain why you are choosing to disregard her advice she will think better of it. I certainly don't think she will make the kids go barefoot nor will she ban them from the trip over something this trivial.

Chill everyone, this is a rant about a school trip, not a major foreign policy decision that will effect world peace.

Sue_xx_yy

Celianne - as I have taught (okay, in a university, not a high school) you can bet I like the idea of teachers/professors being treated with respect!

That said, those who would command respect, have to earn it. It is a sign of strength, not a sign of weakness, to invite discussion and criticism, rather than simply give ultimatums.

Jonestown was a tragedy, I agree. And yes, I deliberately sought an extreme example since it made the point that obedience is something one should proffer to someone only when that someone doesn't abuse their authority. Sure, the kids have the responsibility to conform to the dress standards of the group - but responsibility goes both ways. The teacher has the responsibility to ensure that such standards don't compromise the health of those in her/his charge.

Besides (by way of lightening the discussion up a bit) kids suffering from blistered feet are apt to sing off-key.

Seamus

Reading this latest update on the manic maestro reminds me of a great line from a movie (whose title escapes me) in which a son expresses surprise at his mother's mother's calm reaction to his announcement that he is gay and she responds, "I didn't teach school all those years without knowing a few music teachers."

And feel free to tell this nervous nelly that a big fag from Fodor's says he should just relax and get over himself. ;-)

missypie

Wow, I don't check in for a while and look what happens! Thanks everyone for your thoughts. Respecting a teacher is one thing and spendng several hundred dollars per kid on new clothes and shoes at the last minute to show that respect is quite another. (Of course, the price of the trip itself has gone up three times due to the exchange rate.)

All I will add - just for the amusement factor - is that when I talked to my daughter in greater detail about what these comfortable walking shoes were to look like, she said the teacher said they shouldn't lace up; they should slip on and have elastic! When I drop my kids off at the airport, I'm going to have to take a good look at the choir director's feet, because all the comfortable walkling shoes I've ever owned lace up.

Seamus

Gee, I would have expected him to specify velcro straps ;-)

kleeblatt

Just came home from invigilating a Cambridge exam here in Switzerland. The students were mostly between 18 - 22. The girls wore boots or black or white sneakers. The young men wore dark shoes, mostly sneakers. Some wore white sneakers too.

All were wearing blue or black jeans. All were dressed casually.

They all behaved extremely well during the 6 hour exam.

highflyer

Respect is earned. Teachers have to be organised and these last minute changes are inconsiderate and disrespectful. At this late stage the teacher (imo) should only insist on changes for safety reasons and these should at least come with some sort of apology for having been overlooked. All other 'changes' should be suggestions not rules with days before departure.
FWIW I was a high school teacher for 10 years.

I'd love to see what that choir teacher is wearing on his feet

janisj

I have not read the whole thread yet -- will go back and do so - but maybe this info is useful

The Youth Symphony in my home town did a Helsinki, Talinn, St Petersburg trip last year. They had to wear tuxedos and long black dresses for all performances (one in each city) including dress shoes. This is their normal attire for concerts at home and they chose to continue the same even though their luggage was VERY restricted.

They had 2 free days in each city and 1 performance day. Each was limited to 1 carry on and one checked bag each - but that had to <u>include their musical instruments</u>. So essentially each was restricted to 1 carry-on for tuxes/dresses/dress shoes as well as all their casual clothing.

This was for 11 days - 2 in transit and 9 in country. And they did it w/o any big hassles.

How - well the major patrons/supporters of the symphony organized a huge BarBQ for all 75+ musicians, their parents and all the chaperones.

After the meal - all of the kids (aged 13 - 18) and their parents settled in and I presented a packing workshop. How to pack a tuxedo/shirts and dress shoes in a carry on w/o wrinkling. How to maximize space in the rollaboard or rolling duffel, how to deal w/ the liquid/gel restrictions, etc.

Every single member of the traveling party - nearly 150 people - managed w/ just carry ons -- so it definitely is not impossible, and size 13 shoes fit too . . . . .

janisj

Just to clarify - my post was re the &quot;pack light rant&quot; bit . . . .

goddesstogo

josephina,
No matter which side of any argument you're on, nobody gets to say 'end of story' on these threads.

It doesn't work anyway, as you can see.

Cowboy1968

Probably the most amazing thread of the century - not only the initial question, but also the responses.

Few questions go through my mind:

1. Can anyone think of a school in Europe making such a fuss about going to Italy with re. to what the kids wear in their free time?

2. Can anyone think of a family in Europe spending &euro;&euro;&euro; on additional &quot;nice&quot; casual wear because their kids travel to another EU country?
Most female students will probably try this with their parents, though.. I guess LOL

3. Can anyone think of a parent in Europe not telling the teacher to mind his own business when making &quot;rules&quot; about what kids have to wear in their free time? (within the lines of basic decency)

From my perspective, most comments in favor of &quot;dress up&quot; for casual occasions come from a suburbia perception of what should be fashion in Europe, but not from what is fashion in Europe.

bozama

Well, having followed this thread from the beginning all I have to say is the teacher is a nut case and I don't respect him one little bit, but as a mother I also don't understand Missypie who claims to have travelled a fair amount before, not standing up to this idiot teacher and setting him straight. This teacher is NOT an experienced traveller.

SAS shoes do NOT come in attractive youthful styles and whoever said that has not been young in decades.
I am firmly middle age and I have yet to see any of those shoes that would look &quot; normal&quot; on anyone under 20. The also cost a pretty penny, and remember these parents have already been putting out money for this trip.

And I would refuse to buy new shoes six days before the trip, my kids would wear what they had( keeping in mind they would each have a pair of shoes suitable for the performances as requested by choir nut case director) BUT for touring would wear what I THEIR parent deem respectable and comfortable.

MissPrism

1. Can anyone think of a school in Europe making such a fuss about going to Italy with re. to what the kids wear in their free time?

When my children went on trips abroad, they had a dress guide.
I seem to remember that it was basically, look neat, clean and respectable with plain tee-shirts and school shoes or walking sandals.
Like most English schools, they banned trainers at school and insisted on plain brown or black shoes.