Help with French Place Pronuciations
Feb 3rd, 2005 | 08:20 AM
#22
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
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I agree that previous conversations on how to <i><b>write</b></i> in " English" the pronunciation in French is an exercise in "can't-be-done".
Still, I'm very surprised that "sahn" would be considered particularly close to the pronunciation of the French "Saint". It rhymes with the French word "vin", not with the French name "Jean". I would explain it as the first syllable in "sandwich", but without pronouncing the "n", or the "d". Kinda like a kid says it... saaa-wich (but clearly the "aaa" is not intended to be an "ah" sound).
And Remy = "rim-may"? Huh!?
Reh-MEE, or ruh-MEE, or even ray-MEE, but not anything-MAY unless there is something local in the pronunciation that I have totally missed.
And, as StCirq has pointed out - - the final syllably in Rousillon is the same as the first syllable in "bonjour". Not an "ahn" sound at all.
While I defer to StCirq - - and I think that the advice about listening to that impish line in the "Sound of Music" (I would have written it "yieu and yieu and yieu" - - since it is sung as a direct rhyme to "adieu"
, I think that "Bon" is potentially confusing... in American English, for example, bon-bon rhymes with "John-John" and is really an "ah" sound. The first syllable in Bonnieux is closer to "bun", with a hint of "bone". It is NOT the same syllable as in "bonjour", but IS more or less the same as "bonne annee" or "bonne anniversaire".
Last of all, writing "boe" (a syllable found in the English word "oboe" removes the possible confusion from writing "bow".
Best wishes,
Rex
Still, I'm very surprised that "sahn" would be considered particularly close to the pronunciation of the French "Saint". It rhymes with the French word "vin", not with the French name "Jean". I would explain it as the first syllable in "sandwich", but without pronouncing the "n", or the "d". Kinda like a kid says it... saaa-wich (but clearly the "aaa" is not intended to be an "ah" sound).
And Remy = "rim-may"? Huh!?
Reh-MEE, or ruh-MEE, or even ray-MEE, but not anything-MAY unless there is something local in the pronunciation that I have totally missed.
And, as StCirq has pointed out - - the final syllably in Rousillon is the same as the first syllable in "bonjour". Not an "ahn" sound at all.
While I defer to StCirq - - and I think that the advice about listening to that impish line in the "Sound of Music" (I would have written it "yieu and yieu and yieu" - - since it is sung as a direct rhyme to "adieu"
, I think that "Bon" is potentially confusing... in American English, for example, bon-bon rhymes with "John-John" and is really an "ah" sound. The first syllable in Bonnieux is closer to "bun", with a hint of "bone". It is NOT the same syllable as in "bonjour", but IS more or less the same as "bonne annee" or "bonne anniversaire".Last of all, writing "boe" (a syllable found in the English word "oboe"
removes the possible confusion from writing "bow".Best wishes,
Rex
Feb 3rd, 2005 | 08:26 AM
#23
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
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I see you were posting more as I was writing my post. above...
So, I will take a shot...
Menerbes
muh-NEHRRB
Saignon
seh-NYOH(n)
Carpentras
car-paw(n)-TRAH
Cavaillon
ca-vye-YOH(n)
Maussane
moe-SAHNN (last syllable rhymes with JOHN)
Eygalieres
not entirely sure if there is a local pronunciation that defies "standard" French pronunciation, since "ey" is a rare diphthong in French)...
eye-gall-YEHRR
So, I will take a shot...
Menerbes
muh-NEHRRB
Saignon
seh-NYOH(n)
Carpentras
car-paw(n)-TRAH
Cavaillon
ca-vye-YOH(n)
Maussane
moe-SAHNN (last syllable rhymes with JOHN)
Eygalieres
not entirely sure if there is a local pronunciation that defies "standard" French pronunciation, since "ey" is a rare diphthong in French)...
eye-gall-YEHRR
Feb 3rd, 2005 | 08:36 AM
#24
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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The correct spelling is Ménerbes, and the pronunciation is something like:
may-NEHRRB
The first syllable of Eygalières is pronounced 'ay' as in hay.
The rest of these look right as long as it is clear that Cavaillon is
kah-vye-YOH(n)
may-NEHRRB
The first syllable of Eygalières is pronounced 'ay' as in hay.
The rest of these look right as long as it is clear that Cavaillon is
kah-vye-YOH(n)
Feb 3rd, 2005 | 09:00 AM
#27
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 469
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JoeG - this is an extremely difficult way to learn French pronunciations. In writing there will always be differences of opinion and misunderstandings on what people are trying to say. You're better off to try finding someone who can say them to you audibly.
Feb 3rd, 2005 | 09:14 AM
#28
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 49,560
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This is really futile. Joe, I'm tempted just to give you my phone number so you can HEAR them, but....
Menerbes - may nerhb (with a slight "eh" sound at the end - that "second syllable" that others were referring to that really isn't a complete syllable)
Saignon - sen yoh(n) - I like the way Rex wrote that.
Carpentras - car poh(n) trah (again, some would add the "s" sound)
Cavaillon - cah vie yoh(n) (vie pronounced as in English, not the French word for life)
Maussane - moe sahn
Eygalieres - ay gahl yare
SergioL's right...enough!
Menerbes - may nerhb (with a slight "eh" sound at the end - that "second syllable" that others were referring to that really isn't a complete syllable)
Saignon - sen yoh(n) - I like the way Rex wrote that.
Carpentras - car poh(n) trah (again, some would add the "s" sound)
Cavaillon - cah vie yoh(n) (vie pronounced as in English, not the French word for life)
Maussane - moe sahn
Eygalieres - ay gahl yare
SergioL's right...enough!
Apr 3rd, 2005 | 09:51 AM
#30
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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French ponunciation site -- U.S. and U.K. English too, plus other languages
This is a voice synthesis site that can pronounce just about any word, phrase, or sentence for you in a variety of languages. It's not 100% authentic because it is synthesizing the pronunciation of spelling (and not taking into account regional or local irregularities) but it is impressive. Try it.
http://www.naturalvoices.att.com/demos/index.html
This is a voice synthesis site that can pronounce just about any word, phrase, or sentence for you in a variety of languages. It's not 100% authentic because it is synthesizing the pronunciation of spelling (and not taking into account regional or local irregularities) but it is impressive. Try it.
http://www.naturalvoices.att.com/demos/index.html
Apr 3rd, 2005 | 10:23 AM
#31
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 19,000
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Why don't we all just learn to write and read IPA and have done with it? 
I admit I <u>have</u> occasionally failed to make myself understood saying a couple of French place names that the locals don't pronounce phonetically, but resorting to spelling aloud in French always solved the problem.
(Pedantic aside: the word is d-i-<b>p-h-t-h</b>-o-n-g, and is pronounced dif' thong. Rex gets full marks, as usual.)
I admit I <u>have</u> occasionally failed to make myself understood saying a couple of French place names that the locals don't pronounce phonetically, but resorting to spelling aloud in French always solved the problem.
(Pedantic aside: the word is d-i-<b>p-h-t-h</b>-o-n-g, and is pronounced dif' thong. Rex gets full marks, as usual.)
Apr 3rd, 2005 | 10:35 AM
#32
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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The synthesized voice pronounces Auxerre, Auxonne, and Auxois with a -ks- sound instead of the local -ss- but a lot of French people say the words that way too.
It pronounces Uzès as yew-ZAY, which a lot of French people wouldn't understand (it's yew-ZEHSS). But overall it's pretty impressive technology.
It pronounces Uzès as yew-ZAY, which a lot of French people wouldn't understand (it's yew-ZEHSS). But overall it's pretty impressive technology.
Apr 4th, 2005 | 12:51 AM
#33
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 193
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Je suis le maître. HAHAHA
Saint Rémy (don't forget the accent)
--> Sahn (hard on the n) raymee
Roussillon
--> roo-see-yon
Gordes
-->gord
Bonnieux
-->bohn -nee-uh
Les Baux
--> lay bo
Uzes ( i think theres supposed to be an accent on the E to make it è
--> Ü-zehs
Cassis
--> kah-sees
Saint Rémy (don't forget the accent)
--> Sahn (hard on the n) raymee
Roussillon
--> roo-see-yon
Gordes
-->gord
Bonnieux
-->bohn -nee-uh
Les Baux
--> lay bo
Uzes ( i think theres supposed to be an accent on the E to make it è
--> Ü-zehs
Cassis
--> kah-sees
Apr 6th, 2005 | 09:10 AM
#36
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,194
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Why, thank you... Robespierre... I hadn't seen your kudos earlier.
And as for
<<Why don't we all just learn to write and read IPA and have done with it?>>
... may I point out that someone discovered that "schwa" - - the vowel sound in "de", "le", "je", etc... can be "written" here
&#601 = ə
So, "we" who obsess over pronunciation could at least use that!
(this isn't entirely the right thread to mention this, though! not a single single place name contains a schwa... since both "St. Rémy" and "Ménerbes" were spelled "wrong" (omitting the accent aigu in each case)
And as for
<<Why don't we all just learn to write and read IPA and have done with it?>>
... may I point out that someone discovered that "schwa" - - the vowel sound in "de", "le", "je", etc... can be "written" here
&#601 = ə
So, "we" who obsess over pronunciation could at least use that!
(this isn't entirely the right thread to mention this, though! not a single single place name contains a schwa... since both "St. Rémy" and "Ménerbes" were spelled "wrong" (omitting the accent aigu in each case)
Apr 6th, 2005 | 10:31 AM
#38
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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It's impossible to write this using the English alphabet, of course.
ah-ro(n)-dees-MAW(M)
The all caps mean the stress in on the last syllable (as in all French words). And the (n) means the preceding vowel is a nasal vowel and the N is not really pronounced.
ah-ro(n)-dees-MAW(M)
The all caps mean the stress in on the last syllable (as in all French words). And the (n) means the preceding vowel is a nasal vowel and the N is not really pronounced.
