mandalay

We are 4 adults travelling in December - January to Europe.

Itinerary: Berlin - Dusseldorf
Dusseldorf - Munich (Total of 11 days in Germany)

Munich to Florence
Florence to Rome
Rome to Turin (total of 10 days in Italy)

Turin to Paris (3 nights in paris)

We are thinking of flying from Paris to Malaga in Spain (or do you suggest Train?)

Malaga to Seville
Seville to Barcelona ( 12 days in Spain)

Do you suggest we get a global pass, eurail pass or just buy trip tickets between cities. We also will do day trips by train from these cities to see sights eg: From Munich want to go to Salzburg for the day.

Advice please...thanks in advance

Man_in_seat_61

If you are sure of your dates, BY FAR the cheapest option is to book cheap advance-purchase tickets in, erm, advance direct with the relevant operator.

Berlin-Dusseldorf & Dusseldorf-Munich from 29 euros www.bahn.de/en

Munich to Florence by direct City Night Line sleeper train www.bahn.de/en - look for the CNL train with 0 changes leaving late evening. By day trains, you'd book Munich to Verona from 39 euros at www.bahn.de/en, allow 45 minutes between trains, then book Verona-Florence from 19 euros at www.trenitalia.com

In Italy, use www.trenitalia.com - Rome to Turin from 29 euros.

Turin to Paris by direct TGV train from 29 euros 2nd class or 46 euros in 1st class www.capitainetrain.com

You can do Paris-Barcelona by direct TGV from 59 euros www.capitainetrain.com 3 or 4 double-decker 200mph TGV Duplex trains daily, a nice trip.

Barcelona to Malaga by high-speed AVE from 45 euros and any other journeys within Spain www.renfe.com (or simpler, www.loco2.com)

PalenQ

You are traveling on trains enough that a pass though more expensive than a combo on discounted (and highly restricted on changes and refunds - none in many cases) and give you flexibility to chose which trains to take once there - in countries like Germany and Austria and Switzerland you can just hop on any train anytime - but in Italy, France and Spain you must have a seat reservation before boarding - I've never had a problem getting those with a pass as I went along - French TGVs can be problematic so many make those reservations when you buy (if) buy a pass.

So it all boils down to flexibility - or are you OK with booking months in advance, often in concrete, then that would be cheaper - also keep in mind the Global Pass, if over age 25 is automatically first class and the discounted tickets touted by Man in Seat 60 are second-class so it's like comparing apples with oranges or really table wine with fine wine IMO - there are many benefits to first class in my years of European train traveling - so cheapest is not automatically the best.

Plus to track all those discounted fares down from a laundry list of different sites can take hours and many like with the Spanish and Italian ones leave novices often flummoxed.

For lots of train info check out Man in Seat 61's commercial site, www.seat61.com and also www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

and yes fly from Paris to Malaga as it is a long haul by train if going straight thru.

nytraveler

Why go Paris to Malag aand then Madrid and Barcelona - a lot of backtracking?

Train Paris to Barcelona, then Madrid and then Malaga - and save time and money spent just getting from one place to another.

Russ

Your trip sounds pretty organized to me. You already are planning the number of days in each country. Will you be booking rooms in advance? Probably so with a group of 4. If so, then your travel dates from one city to the next will be predetermined as well, and you probably have no real need for schedule flexibility (railpass.) I see no reason why you should not pre-purchase each major travel leg as long as this means money saved and as long as you your final itinerary is doable as planned.

"From Munich want to go to Salzburg for the day." You will probably have several such day trips like this, but such trips do not normally need to be pre-purchased; you can if you wish, sometimes for a good price, but day passes like the Bayern Ticket are very cheap, useful and flexible. If for example you planned to day trip to Salzburg on Saturday December 20, but the weather was just miserable, you could just do it the next day - the Bayern Ticket requires no pre-purchase as the price is the same no matter when you buy it (€35 for 4 adults for Munich - Salzburg - Munich on the local trains, roughly 1.75 - 2 hours each way.) No reservations are required (or even possible) on the regional trains. You can travel at any hour you wish on Saturday or Sunday - on weekdays your Bayern ticket is valid from 9 am on (so a long daytrip like the one to Salzburg and back is best executed on Sat or Sun when you can zoom out the door earlier.)

http://www.munich-touristinfo.de/Bavaria-Ticket.htm

PalenQ

A 10-day Eurail Global Flexipass, valid on any ten days in a 2-month period costs about $82/day or 59 euros a day for first-class at will train travel - completely flexible - a great deal for that.

How many euros can you save overall with discounted tickets that are restricted and 2nd class. On the trip of a lifetime and especially for folks carrying typically too much luggage first class IME has significant benefits - often empty seats to put bags on - 2nd class typically much fuller and smaller seats, etc.

Even Man in Seat 61 admitted to in a few previous posts of 'being an aficionado of first class train travel.

And with the 7 pm rule on night trains you could if you wanted travel Paris to Malaga by train and use only one day on the pass, saving on a night in a hotel to boot.

Russ

I have to question the rationale that folks who take too much luggage need to pay more for first class tickets or first class railpasses. Maybe they just need to learn packing skills.

You are traveling Italy - Paris, correct? Note that a railpass is NOT "completely flexible" as you cannot use the night trains:

From Rick Steves' railpass pages: "All direct night trains on this route are privately operated under the Thello brand (pronounced "Tell-o"), and do not accept any rail passes."

Note also that a railpass does not shield you from abusive reservation prices:

"Direct day trains on this route (unlike the direct night trains) accept rail passes that cover France, but the "reservation fee" is exorbitant. Here's what you'll pay to ride the Paris–Lyon–Turin–Milan direct TGV day trains after already having paid for a rail pass:

With a multi-country pass that includes France: $80 in second class, $110 in first, not sold online...

Both rates have limited seats available and are likely to sell out weeks before departure, making it not merely expensive, but also difficult to use your rail pass on this train."

Steves' business is selling railpass days, but even he recommends flying to Paris.

"A 10-day Eurail Global Flexipass, valid on any ten days in a 2-month period costs about $82/day or 59 euros a day for first-class"

So a 10-day railpass @ $820 per adult is a great deal? That would depend on how much value you place on first class travel, and on the cost of the alternatives - which is unknown at present.

kybourbon

Are you adding Turin because you actually want to visit or because you thought it would be a halfway stop between Rome and Paris? If the latter, you would be better off booking a flight. Easy Jet flies Rome to Paris Orly and will be cheaper.

mandalay

Thanks for all the great advice. Kybourbon I have relatives in Turin thus staying for 3 nights.

With this advice, I will book well in advance for pre-purchase tickets first class between all the cities on the itinerary, and then can I purchase day tickets for day trips out of the city on the morning of the trip. Do I need to book reserved seats on day trips out of city.

kybourbon

>>>Do I need to book reserved seats on day trips out of city.<<<

It depends on the trip. In Italy, small towns are only served by slow regional trains which don't have seat reservations. The fast train tickets come with your seat. On most of the trains between major cities and countries, 2nd class is perfectly fine (especially a short trip like Florence/Rome - 90 minutes). This is a picture of 2nd class on an Italian fast train (1st class has one less seat across).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ssainterno.jpg

I think I would look at flying Munich/Rome. Train to Florence a few days and then train to Turin.

PalenQ

the big difference between first and second class is not only three seats in a row vs 4 as in kybourbon's photo (of a very untypical looking 2nd class train IME - seems like some promo photo of a train rolling fresh out of the factory - don't expect any scenes that sweet IME) - the difference IME is that there are more empty seats in first class - I can almost always put my bags on an adjoining seat, keeping an eye on them - 2nd class is typically more full to full and finding space in already over crowded overhead luggage racks can be hard -

anyway first class seats are significantly bigger and you do get some complimentary drink and small snack only in first class and a free Italian newspaper!

sometimes with the discount tickets being often sold out in advance a discounted first class ticket may not cost much more than a 2nd class one so always check both classes and if not much more go first class - on the trip of a lifetime go in a more relaxed way - much more relaxed IME.

This is not to say 2nd class is a cattle car - it ain't but that first class has significant benefits and that 2nd class sample photo is not typical IME of taking and train spotting zillions of trains in Italy.