Help. Logos

Dec 4th, 2008, 05:20 PM
  #1  
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Help. Logos

Someone on the Rick Steves website has a picture they say they took in Munich of a war memorial. It says, "Der Pfalz und Ihren im Weltkrieg gefallenen Söhnen". Do you know where it is, and what it is about?
Larryincolorado is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 02:03 AM
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Could you post the link to the photo Larry?

From the inscription I'd guess World War I and a connection to those areas in the Pfalz that were under Bavarian rule.
quokka is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 04:23 AM
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Literally it means "To the Pflaz and her sons who fell in the world war".
PatrickLondon is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 06:20 AM
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This is the picture:

http://www.denkmalprojekt.org/ohne_n...sse_on_bay.htm

It is in the Ottostraße and remembers World War I.

From 1214 to 1945 (with interruptions), the Pfalz belonged to Bayern, but already in the 19th century, Prussia had dissolved parts of the Pfalz out of Bayern and Bayern wanted, in case of a victory in WW I, Alsace and Lorraine as a compensation.

However, there were separatist movements in the Pfalz to get total independence from Bayern. Hitler finally took the Pfalz away from Bayern, and after 1945, when the Federal Republic of Germany was formed, the Pfalz was made a state of its own (Rheinland-Pfalz).


traveller1959 is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 06:52 AM
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Traveller, that's it. Thanks for the picture link.

Patrick, I understood the translation, although I was thinking Pfalz was plural, and it was "Their sons", but then it would have to be "Den Pfalzen".
Larryincolorado is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 07:19 AM
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Hi Larry, I'm here to help but obviously, you already got the solution ;-)
logos999 is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 07:41 AM
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>From 1214 to 1945 (with interruptions), the Pfalz belonged to Bayern

Sorry, you're wrong.
Pfalz was confirmed as Electorate in 1356 and stayed independent, even higher in rank than Bayern till Bayern became Elector in 1623. Both houses belonged to the dynasty of Wittelsbach and were closely related, so in 1778 Pfalz inherited Bayern (not the other way round). Due to the inheritance contract the Elector of Pfalz had to move from Mannheim to Munich. The 19th century Bavarian kings descend from the line of Pfalz-Zweibrücken. In 1815 (congress of Vienna) Bayern received the parts of the former Pfalz on the left bank of the Rhine.
quokka is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 08:40 AM
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quokka, the Bavarians will drown you in brown beer for your remark.

The Pfalz became fiefdom of Wittelsbach in 1214.

This is an interesting dispute for our friends from abroad. Typical for Germany. Every region has historical claims - Bayern claims that the Pfalz belongs to Bayern and the Pfalz claims that Bayern belongs to the Pfalz. Thank God, we are beyond this type of thinking, although, I admit, it is still rife in Bayern.

In many German cities, there is serious discussion whether WW I memorials should be removed. Mostly, the legislators decide to leave them as historical markers.
traveller1959 is offline  
Dec 5th, 2008, 12:44 PM
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They won't if they know a bit about history. This isn't about "claims" of certain regions. (By the way, the Bavarian inheritance of Elector Carl Theodor von der Pfalz in 1778 was involved in one of my latest professional research projects.)

Maximilian IV. Joseph, who became King Maximilian I. of Bayern in 1806, is Prince Maximilian IV. Joseph of Pfalz-Zweibrücken-Birkenfeld.
quokka is offline  
Dec 10th, 2008, 02:43 PM
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I much enjoy reading history but Germany has always been a source of confusion to me. A consolidate Germany is younger than the USA. Before that there were not only all the divisions within Germany but the shifting borders with all its neighbors.

An additional source of irritation is a visit to most American bookstores. They will have a handful of general texts on German history, and then 3 shelves on the Third Reich. You might not find anything on the Peasant War but you can find multiple books on the Hitler youth movement.

I hope that Germany treats its own history with more thoroughness.

Regards, Gary
Gary_Mc is offline  
Dec 11th, 2008, 03:39 PM
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Die Pfalz in English is usually "the Palatinate."
jahoulih is online now  
Dec 12th, 2008, 02:31 AM
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>A consolidate Germany is younger than the USA.

A Germany that is consolidate again, you mean - states that can be justifiedly described as "consolidate Germany" existed (on and off) at least since early middle ages.
altamiro is offline  
Dec 12th, 2008, 03:04 AM
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Trying to work out how logos come into this ?
caroline_edinburgh is offline  
Dec 12th, 2008, 09:23 AM
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"A Germany that is consolidate again, you mean - states that can be justifiedly described as 'consolidate Germany' existed (on and off) at least since early middle ages." Altamiro

My reading, which may indeed be flawed: Throughout most of the Holy Roman Empire, the individual "Electors" seemed to me almost more powerful that the elected emperor. They had independent foreign policies, aimed at furthering their own goals rather than those of a Deutschland.

The emperor that we call Charles V may have held loose control over much of Europe but he at war with the many of the states that he "ruled".

You might go back to Charlemagne, but he was as much of France as Deutschland.

My use of "consolidated" might have been wrong, but I can not find a better word. My limited view of "consolidating" came with Bismarck, almost over the objection of his Kingdom of Prussia masters.

Again, my views may be flawed though not for a lack of effort.

I was fascinated by Günter Grass's novel "Too far Afield" (Ein weites Feld) comparing the more modern "consolidation" to that of Bismarck's time. It lead me to try to read "Der Stechlin" by Theodor Fontane to get a flavor of the time. Unfortunately, both Fontane of Grass write at a level of complexity and vocabulary beyond my limited reading skills.

Being retired, I have a lot of time to wander through written material both historical and fictional. Sometimes, I wonder about the division between the two.

With Regards, Gary

Gary_Mc is offline  
Dec 12th, 2008, 09:37 AM
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>Throughout most of the Holy Roman Empire, the individual "Electors" seemed to me almost more powerful that the elected emperor. They had independent foreign policies, aimed at furthering their own goals rather than those of a Deutschland.

Not only the Electors, but all princes and counts, prince bishops and abbots of imperial abbeys, imperial cities and free nobility.
The Holy Roman Empire, later known as "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation", was no centralized state like France or England. It was more like a roof that held all these individual, though not entirely souvereign states together. A unique constitutional structure.

The idea of "Deutschland" as a nation arose in the time of Napoleon but still took decades to become political reality. A "German Empire" was first founded in 1871.
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