Help - German Experts
Nov 19th, 2000, 06:38 AM
#1
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Help - German Experts
My family and I love visiting Bavaria. We can't seem to avoid stopping there no matter where we're traveling in Europe. We love the mixture of beautiful open farm land and mountains along with the smattering of old churches and villages around every other turn in the road. You can stop in any town and find something interesting and unique. I guess what I like best is the people. They seem like anachronisms in today's world - they are kind, gentle and always helpful. Best of all, they are fun. Great sense of humor (only the Danes seem more wacky). My question is, are the Bavarians considered "hicks" by the other Germans? Are they akin to the Cletuses and Billy Bobs of America? Are they the brunt of jokes among the other more "worldly" German people?
Nov 19th, 2000, 01:31 PM
#2
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I am by no means a German 'expert', but your question made me think of the following story . . . a German friend of mine works as a Public Relations Officer for a large bank in Cologne. He was put in charge of hosting a reception to celebrate the opening of a new branch office in one of the smaller cities in Bavaria (I don't recall which one).
Part of the ceremonies were to involve honoring some local athlete for setting some kind of record in his sport. (I'm sorry I'm so sketchy on the details.) Anyway, even having been told it would be a semi-formal event, the poor guy came dressed in what my friend considered to be extremely informal attire.
Also, he had been asked to say a few words at the gathering, and was asked to use "Hochdeutsch" rather than the dialect spoken in his town. But when he spoke, almost none of the folks from Northern/Central Germany could understand him. Afterwards, my friend went to him and said, "You know, you are being given this award by our company, the least you could do is speak correct German" or words to that effect, to which the man replied, "I'm really sorry, but I WAS trying to speak High German and that's the best I can do."
I visited my friend in Cologne, and also visited Berlin and Hamburg; next time I hope to get to Bavaria!
Part of the ceremonies were to involve honoring some local athlete for setting some kind of record in his sport. (I'm sorry I'm so sketchy on the details.) Anyway, even having been told it would be a semi-formal event, the poor guy came dressed in what my friend considered to be extremely informal attire.
Also, he had been asked to say a few words at the gathering, and was asked to use "Hochdeutsch" rather than the dialect spoken in his town. But when he spoke, almost none of the folks from Northern/Central Germany could understand him. Afterwards, my friend went to him and said, "You know, you are being given this award by our company, the least you could do is speak correct German" or words to that effect, to which the man replied, "I'm really sorry, but I WAS trying to speak High German and that's the best I can do."
I visited my friend in Cologne, and also visited Berlin and Hamburg; next time I hope to get to Bavaria!
Nov 19th, 2000, 02:36 PM
#3
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Let me also disclaim my status as an expert! The "country bumpkin" dairy farmer image is hard to shake there -- and the heavy, non-standard regional dialects do stigmatize the people of this region. Additionally, the strong Catholic background and political conservatism of Bayern also help make it a place apart from the rest of Germany. Inhabitants of Friesland in the north have similar image problems.
Nov 19th, 2000, 05:11 PM
#4
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Certainly the accents in the southern (Upper Bavaria) part of bavaria give rise to some comments from 'sophisticated' Germans. (Much as an Ivy-League Bostonian might mock someone with an Appalachian accent.) But then my German friends have similar comments about Swiss, and often Austrians.
If there's regional animus in Germany it's between Prussians (e.g. Berlin) and Bavarians. Both large, powerful states in the 18th Century. (Bavaria remains a large state, holding, by constititution, special privileges unique among other states.) Prussians, stereotypically, have a view of Bavarians (and much of the rest of the world) as inferior. The sterotypical Bavarian consider Prussians overbearing and arrogant.
A classic, though probably apochryphal, story of a confrontation between a Prussian and Bayerner:
P: Do you know why the Prussian Eagle (Prussian National Symbol) spreads his wings?
B: So it can protect Bavaria.
B: Do you know why the Bavaria Lion (Bayern's National Symbol) lifts his tail?
P: So Prussians can kiss his (butt).
Ed
If there's regional animus in Germany it's between Prussians (e.g. Berlin) and Bavarians. Both large, powerful states in the 18th Century. (Bavaria remains a large state, holding, by constititution, special privileges unique among other states.) Prussians, stereotypically, have a view of Bavarians (and much of the rest of the world) as inferior. The sterotypical Bavarian consider Prussians overbearing and arrogant.
A classic, though probably apochryphal, story of a confrontation between a Prussian and Bayerner:
P: Do you know why the Prussian Eagle (Prussian National Symbol) spreads his wings?
B: So it can protect Bavaria.
B: Do you know why the Bavaria Lion (Bayern's National Symbol) lifts his tail?
P: So Prussians can kiss his (butt).
Ed
Nov 19th, 2000, 05:23 PM
#5
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As an 'outsider' I should add that I share Doug's attraction to Bavaria. While we find the Free State too large to generalize about the population, we do, typically, find Bavarians quite friendly.
One suspects attitudes from other Germans toward Bavarians, beyond the tradtional Prussian/Bavarian contempt, may arise from jealousy. It's large, with about 15% of the population of Germany, and for that and other reasons has been extremely influential in German affairs since WWII. It's also, generally, economically well off, with an unemployment, for example, about equal to the best areas in the US ... something for the rest of Europe and much of Germany to envy.
Ed
One suspects attitudes from other Germans toward Bavarians, beyond the tradtional Prussian/Bavarian contempt, may arise from jealousy. It's large, with about 15% of the population of Germany, and for that and other reasons has been extremely influential in German affairs since WWII. It's also, generally, economically well off, with an unemployment, for example, about equal to the best areas in the US ... something for the rest of Europe and much of Germany to envy.
Ed
Nov 20th, 2000, 04:01 AM
#6
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Bavarians are the brunt of jokes by the rest of Germany. But it can't be reduced to catholicism or Prusso-Bavarian hostility. The catholic Rhineland can agree that Berlin is awful and Protestants aren't easy-going enough but it still makes the same jokes about Bavaria as the Berliners. A better explanation is that each part of Germany makes jokes about all other parts of Germany.
Regionalism is still strong in Germany although it's mostly a matter of jokes and not a tenth as serious as it was even half a century ago. This regionalism and the resulting rivalries aren't restricted to distant parts of Germany but include towns only 50 km away or on the other side of a river.
As an example, Bonn and Beuel were seperate towns until their comparatively recent union, lying opposite to each other at the Rhine. People from Beuel preferred to go shopping to Cologne instead of Bonn and thus saw no reason to participate in the costs of the bridge connecting the two towns. Bonn paid for the bridge on its own and put a little statue on it which shows its nude behind into the direction of Beuel. There's still joking about people coming from the "wrong" side of the Rhine.
Or Cologne and Duesseldorf share a dislike against each other which will only end if they need to form an alliance to praise each other as Rhinelanders and make fun about the rest of the Republic (or despise Leverkusen).
Within Bavaria you can find the Franken, which will tell their sorry tale of Bavarian imperialsm, no matter whether you're interested or not. Don't call them Bavarians just because they live in Bavaria.
Swabians are tight and absurdly orderly, as anyone from Baden can tell you. The arrogant Berlin is hated by everybody but the people which consider it the most interesting place in Germany. Saxons have the most terrible accent in Germany. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern has the nickname German-Siberia. Hamburg lacks humour. East-Frisians aren't the brightest persons on earth. Hannover is too boring to even joke about. And so on and on.
Bavarians probably get more than their fair share of jokes since the have a country on their own, being governed by the CSU for decades, which is a party existing only in Bavaria. They make an obvious target for the jokes of the rest of Germany. But this doesn't mean that the rest of Germany is a monolithical bloc and furthermore the whole thing shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Dialects are an interesting feature of Germany. They become less important and are replaced by the standard German, the High German which is basically the dialect spoken in the region of Hannover. But if one encounters dialects, they are nearly incomprehensively for an outsider. I'm born in the Rhineland but my family doesn't originate from the region. So I have never really learned the dialect and I don't understand even the topic of a conversation if it is conducted in the local dialect.
The Bavarians aren't the only ones having problems with an accented High German, in fact Baden-Wuertemberg is running an image campaign for the state with the slogan: We can do anything but speak High German.
By the way, Austrians are extremely good partners to make fun about the Swiss and the Swiss have an awful amount of jokes about the Austrians (identical to the Irish jokes in England). But I don't lose the feeling that these two countries might unite to make fun about the Germans if we aren't listening.
Regionalism is still strong in Germany although it's mostly a matter of jokes and not a tenth as serious as it was even half a century ago. This regionalism and the resulting rivalries aren't restricted to distant parts of Germany but include towns only 50 km away or on the other side of a river.
As an example, Bonn and Beuel were seperate towns until their comparatively recent union, lying opposite to each other at the Rhine. People from Beuel preferred to go shopping to Cologne instead of Bonn and thus saw no reason to participate in the costs of the bridge connecting the two towns. Bonn paid for the bridge on its own and put a little statue on it which shows its nude behind into the direction of Beuel. There's still joking about people coming from the "wrong" side of the Rhine.
Or Cologne and Duesseldorf share a dislike against each other which will only end if they need to form an alliance to praise each other as Rhinelanders and make fun about the rest of the Republic (or despise Leverkusen).
Within Bavaria you can find the Franken, which will tell their sorry tale of Bavarian imperialsm, no matter whether you're interested or not. Don't call them Bavarians just because they live in Bavaria.
Swabians are tight and absurdly orderly, as anyone from Baden can tell you. The arrogant Berlin is hated by everybody but the people which consider it the most interesting place in Germany. Saxons have the most terrible accent in Germany. Mecklenburg-Vorpommern has the nickname German-Siberia. Hamburg lacks humour. East-Frisians aren't the brightest persons on earth. Hannover is too boring to even joke about. And so on and on.
Bavarians probably get more than their fair share of jokes since the have a country on their own, being governed by the CSU for decades, which is a party existing only in Bavaria. They make an obvious target for the jokes of the rest of Germany. But this doesn't mean that the rest of Germany is a monolithical bloc and furthermore the whole thing shouldn't be taken too seriously.
Dialects are an interesting feature of Germany. They become less important and are replaced by the standard German, the High German which is basically the dialect spoken in the region of Hannover. But if one encounters dialects, they are nearly incomprehensively for an outsider. I'm born in the Rhineland but my family doesn't originate from the region. So I have never really learned the dialect and I don't understand even the topic of a conversation if it is conducted in the local dialect.
The Bavarians aren't the only ones having problems with an accented High German, in fact Baden-Wuertemberg is running an image campaign for the state with the slogan: We can do anything but speak High German.
By the way, Austrians are extremely good partners to make fun about the Swiss and the Swiss have an awful amount of jokes about the Austrians (identical to the Irish jokes in England). But I don't lose the feeling that these two countries might unite to make fun about the Germans if we aren't listening.
Nov 20th, 2000, 07:05 AM
#7
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I worked with a program that brought Germans to the US for fifteen years. The only comments were that the stereotypes of Bavarians & Texans (of which I am one) are a lot alike--proud, extremely friendly, boastful, and to other parts of the respective counties not as sophisticated. I am sure the Bavarians do as the Texans do--go along with it and then surprise the less fortunate who do not live here and expect less from us.
Nov 20th, 2000, 09:47 AM
#8
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I love Bavaria and I too am a native Texan.
It reminds me of the story in Texas Monthly Magazine a few years ago about all the New Yorkers coming to Texas and thinking they could put something over on the hick Texans because they "talked funny". They got back to New York to find out that the Texans had put one over on them!
Keep visiting Bavaria! Great area!
It reminds me of the story in Texas Monthly Magazine a few years ago about all the New Yorkers coming to Texas and thinking they could put something over on the hick Texans because they "talked funny". They got back to New York to find out that the Texans had put one over on them!
Keep visiting Bavaria! Great area!
Nov 20th, 2000, 11:41 AM
#9
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Doug, to answer your questions: Yes, yes, and yes. I believe it is for good reason that one of the most popular "singalongs" at Oktoberfest is "(Take me home)Country Roads." Our good friend from northern Germany is mortified to find herself married to a Bavarian and steadfastly refuses to even let her small son try on the lederhosen sent for him by her in-laws. But I'm with you... it's my favorite part of Germany for exactly the reasons you gave, and we continue to recommend and to travel on our "Bavarian Loop." I love it!
Jul 10th, 2002, 05:30 AM
#11
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Hi. Marge, thanks for bringing this to the top; I've not seen it before.
I'm going to throw in something here that is sort of related, and maybe someone will have some input: My grandmother and her mom before her made a light supper they called Eier Kuchen mit suss(I don't know how to type the vowel correctly) und saur sosse. Someone from Germany told me they think it is from Bavarian cuisine. It's a very thick, very large omelette cooked in a big black iron frying pan, served in wedges like a pie w/a sweet & sour sauce. They always made it on Friday nights. Any leads? Thanks, J.
I'm going to throw in something here that is sort of related, and maybe someone will have some input: My grandmother and her mom before her made a light supper they called Eier Kuchen mit suss(I don't know how to type the vowel correctly) und saur sosse. Someone from Germany told me they think it is from Bavarian cuisine. It's a very thick, very large omelette cooked in a big black iron frying pan, served in wedges like a pie w/a sweet & sour sauce. They always made it on Friday nights. Any leads? Thanks, J.
Jul 10th, 2002, 05:38 AM
#12
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My German friend from Dortmund looked down upon the Bavarians as "hayseeds."
I chose not to remind him that their affability, easy going lifestyle called "gemutlich" (sp) certainly did more for me than the stiff Prussian attitude of the Northern Germans!
US
I chose not to remind him that their affability, easy going lifestyle called "gemutlich" (sp) certainly did more for me than the stiff Prussian attitude of the Northern Germans!
US
