tr2

Yeah, tableronde, I checked out the two links above in light of previous discussion on your thread:

- are Santorini's beaches in high season like the Italian travel site, or more like the crowded ones at http://www.flickr.com/search/?s=int&...owd&m=text ?

- the beautiful Spiaggia on the Italian home page won't be found on any of the Aegean islands mentioned below; try Myrtos Beach on Kefalonia, in the Ionian sea http://www.flickr.com/photos/10214899@N02/2790457886/

tableronde

Speaking of the Ionian Sea, Corfu was the last stop of our Greek vacation. Now the Ionian islands in NW Greece may rarely attract those flying in and out of Athens, but it is a gorgeous destination or stopover when connecting with ferry to/from Italy.

But getting there was a story in itself ... on transport integration, or the lack of it.

I am told that an old-fashioned islander cares about his family most, then the village, then his island; and he travels to Athens. For the Greeks Athens is a huge central hub, with transport connections radiating out to the island groups, to the Peloponnese, to the North. There is much less interest in traveling to neighboring regions… like Campanilismo in southern Italy, like the hub-and-spoke system of today's major airlines.

Look at a map of Greece and pity the tourist who dreams up a route along the periphery; like us initially planning to travel from Crete to Italy. We wanted to stay away from Athens, instead follow the Peloponnese W coast to Patras, then ferry to Corfu and Bari.

But in the post-season there being only one weekly sailing to Gythio, we had to consider Plan B: ferry back to Piraeus, overland to Meteora (N Central Greece), then via Ioannina and Igoumenitsa (NW Greece) to Corfu. Still, there is a significant disconnect between transport means in Piraeus; we didn't want to get stuck in early morning with heavy luggage to Athens' bus stop; no metro connection, and we had sworn off taxis.

Chania has tons of travel agencies, each representing only a small subset of options, no grand view for a cross-country traveler. Finally an agent had a hot tip for us: an ANEK bus getting onto the ferry and continuing from Piraeus (whereto he didn't know). The bus terminal's Cretan agent didn't know much about Greek geography beyond Athens; but had Ioannina in N Greece on her board; good enough for our Plan C. We boarded this bus in Chania at 7 pm, arrived into Piraeus at 6 am, continued on the highway to Patra, then via local roads to Ioannina at 2 pm. We had one driver throughout, one pit stop every 2 hrs (the locals desperate for a coffee and a cigarette).

In Ioannina the company's terminal was at the edge of town; no transfer info available; we hiked 1 km to another bus station in town center, and felt lucky to find a connection on this Sunday. The 3 hr layover was no problem: pretty town, good dinner. What burned me: leaving town the new bus passed within 50 yards of the previous terminal!! We got to Igoumenitsa at 7 pm, then via ferry to Corfu, arriving at 11 pm. Altogether 900 km (540 mi) in 28 hrs; and fortunately having a full day to recover.

Comparing transport means: while one doesn't see much from the ferry, the bus from Piraeus to Corfu allowed us to see some pretty countryside. We had to leave out Meteora, but crossed the beautiful new Rio-AntiRio suspension bridge near Patra, 2.8 km across the Gulf of Corinth. The gulf is an active tectonic fault line, with frequent earthquakes; the southern shore is drifting away from the northern one by 1.5 cm / year.

The bridge is an engineering marvel, a strategic connection between N & S Greece, financed by the EU. But why are so few cars using it? The car toll of 11.20 € (1€=$1.4 in October) can be compared to the world's other major land links & toll bridges:
- San Francisco's Golden Gate (2.7 km, $6)
- Tampa Bay's Sunshine Skyway (8.8 km, $1)
Chesapeake Bay Bridge-Tunnel (28 km, $12)
- New Brunswick's Confedn Bridge (12.9 km, CAN$41)
- Oresund bridge Denmark to Sweden (7.8 km, 36 &euro
- Lisbon's Vasco da Gama (17.2 km, €2.25)
- Chunnel under the English Channel (50 km, $400 fare chosen to compete with ferry)

Corfu coming up next.

travelerjan

tableronde, your tale of getting from Chania to Corfu is a PERFECT illustration of why we weary forum-watchers often plead with newcomers -- PLEASE, look at a map!! People often say, I have 12 days I'd like to see Rhodes, MEteora, Corfu, Santorini, and I'm flying out of Istanbul. I constantly refer such to T. Cooks "Greek Island Hopping" which is the only guide I know that graphically shows ferry routes, to explain the lack of connections.

BTW, your interesting digression on language prompts me to recommend THE best online Greek phrase & word resource -- I have printed out its "basic" pages and have thrown away my phrasebooks.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/languages/greek/

This wonderful site at top of screen has "talk Greek; a gentle introduction to basic greek." Its 10 pp gives you words/phrases -- audio, an explanation of usage AND the word in Greek & english. If you click the box "useful phrases" there's a printable list wit hthe word in Greek AND in Roman letter phonetically AND (very importantly) showing what syllables are accented.

I recommend printing out all the pages because the TOP words/phrases are sprinkled around (for instance I think "Please" is on page 3). It is THE best... and I have been searching around for 10 year.

tr2

Tableronde, in case you don't know:
Until recently the stretch from Ioannina to Igoumenitsa used to be a tortuous mountain road. The Egnatia Odos (Motorway)http://www.egnatia.eu/page/default.asp?id=5&la=2 is currently one of the largest and most expensive highway construction projects in Europe, maybe on a scale comparable to the Brenner (Brennero) Pass from Innsbruck in Austria to Bolzano, Italy. The difficult mountainous terrain will be crossed by a succession of deep tunnels, bridges, and high viaducts. Financed by the EU, it is meant to open up Northern Greece to transportation.

tableronde

Janet and TR2, thanks for your comments. It is such discussion that raises the level of the forum.

In retrospect I agree with your warnings, to me and others at preparation time, that travel time needs to be included into the plans. Your remark challenged me to count up our travel hours; if I spread it out over the total 21 day vacation, then 1 day averaged:

- 1 hr flying (long round trip from the US West Coast incl. layovers),
- 0.7 hrs ferry rides,
- 2 hrs car travel,
- 2.8 hrs by bus or metro,
- and a whopping 3.5 hrs walking.
Adding to it 8 hrs daily sleep still left us with a few hours per day on the beach, in restaurants, or chatting with people; we didn't lounge around much.

Someone on a cruise ship or in a rental car may see the Greek world drift by. But when depending on public transport, and on the unreliability of connections, ample time and patience should be included. In fact, while our Piraeus - Naxos - Santorini route was well connected, Crete to the Peloponnese was undoable within our post-season constraints. We managed a leisurely clip through most of the trip, but Corfu could barely be squeezed in, because of non-daily connections to southern Italy; we couldn't plan ahead, since the decrepit Ventouris Lines had no schedule anywhere.

Re the BBC language web site: I second your opinion that is is a well conceived introductory implementation, better than other online courses. As for take-along pocket phrase books, make sure it has large enough script to be legible in those dimly lit tavernas.

tr2

Having found myself in Athens' Monastiraki neighborhoods in the evening, I am told to be thankful that they are being patrolled by those tough-looking policemen.
And if we were single ladies running into aggressive males, we should know better than to say anything close to "neh" .

tr2

Tableronde, FYI here is another rare example of long-distance transport coordination: in peak season, overnight express between Corfu and Athens by bus + ferry
http://www.thepinkpalace.com/bus.html

tableronde

Our last trip stage was a short stop in Corfu. Compared to the dry climate in the south Aegean, the Ionian islands get a lot more precipitation precip http://www.greeka.com/greece-weather.htm . Hence the lush vegetation is a contrast to arid Crete, also to the mountain region just East. And the lifestyle looks closer to Italy's.

Looking at tourist brochures – which all praise the best and ignore the difficulties – it was hard to judge how this destination would be different from the other islands; upon arrival we learned that the beaches and resort hotels are quite far from the ferry terminal; one needs an accommodation plan and local transportation.

Rather than taking a taxi to Kanoni, the closest resort 5 mi south of the port, we decided to go to Agios Gordi on west side of the island. The nice beach was nestled among steep cliffs covered with vegetation. I am told that there is good diving in the clear water. One aspect puzzled me in this one street town: two thirds of the businesses were travel agencies and car/scooter rentals with nothing to do ... and hardly any place to park a car. And the prices on most everything were on the average 30% higher than in Crete.

I regret that we only had a day for the beaches; would have liked to explore further north and south.

Instead we spent an additional few hours in Corfu town. Personally I found it too un-Greek, being already familiar with the Venetian or British colonial look. Another significant difference: finally we saw evidence of urban planning to generate a pleasant downtown and port area.

A very different region of Balkan Europe was visible just a stone throw away from the tourist luxury, across the Corfu Channel … Albania: isolated, introverted, very poor, 500 years under Ottoman occupation, one of the last bastions of communism (politically allied with the Chinese). Recently in the news: boatloads of refugees to Greece and Italy, the Kosovo conflict with the Albanian majority declaring independence from Serbia. Many years ago my wife and I visited Pristina: the poorest area of Europe we've ever seen, with the main street still unpaved, all mud after the rain. Corfu's shore residences have been raided by pirate boats from Albania; until a coast guard was established.

After 2 wonderful weeks in Greece we left by ferry to Bari. We had accumulated a ton of memories to digest, and a wish to return in the future with more time to spare on a less ambitious island tour.

One more interesting tidbit for those of you concerned with the smoking issue: check out the solution we saw at the Copenhagen airport http://flickr.com/photos/jlduran727/2880385678/sizes/l/ ; while previously they used to reserve "smoke-free" areas, with the smoking ban they now designed special cabins! and people stand in line to get their fix.

travelerjan

What you just wrote about Corfu, tableronde, is a HUGE argument for investing in (or at least borrowing from the library) some good AND CANDID guidebooks --- the better ones are fdrank about telling you how convenient (or not) some beaches and attractions are. Of course travel brochures make it all sound wonderful!

I continue to be astonished at the fact that couples or families will lay out up to $10- $15,000 on a trip for 2/4 people, and won't plunk $12.95 for a used copy of ROUGH GUIDE or LET'S GO EUROPE or for lord's sake, Fodor's. I just borrowed the lattest fodor's from the library, and bookmarked the heck out of it ... and I have a shelf of GReece books.

Of course, Im an ex-journialist, and we're all about the facts, ma'am! I will say that in 7 trips I hven't had even one bad surprise, because of homework -- only some GOOD ones.

travelerjan

PS, Table, didn't mean to imply YOU don't do homework because obviously you do a ton of research -- in fact, people on Fodor's FOrum seem more lilkely to look things up that those on other travel forums.

It's just a general observation about other people's willngness to spend so much time/money on a trip, but not any on prep

gogogreece

After close to almost 30 trips to Greece and even many more to other European countries , it is almost impossible to know the ins and outs of transit from one location to another and what one might experience at the end of each journey Even more so, one never knows what one will find at end of each small journey- (especially so in Greece!) Usually transit problems are easily sorted out after arrival if one is flexable, and it can only add to the adventure-- Many of us can spend countless hours looking for information in guide books, internet sites and from fellow travelers and still be surprised on arrival.. Independent travelers take this in stride and look at the situation as an adventure, they should not be critized for not doing their homework.

Just my two cents worth. I have enjoyed this trip report. Tableronde seems like a good sport and even though he found negatives in his last destinations he made the most of the situation.

tableronde

I can easily agree with both of you:

- such a trip being a significant investment in time and funds, we spent considerable time reading the available material -- beyond just tourist brochures, maps, or travel forum posts -- and adjusting our expectations to the opportunities
- we were flexible and tolerant, ready to address the situations as they developed

But more important: we came with an open mind, motivation to observe, and appreciation of new experiences.

Now that I put down some impressions and opinions on paper, am I being fair and objective? What would I think if a Greek or West European would make such comments about me and/or my neck of the woods?

I am pondering whether this forum would be the right platform to discuss some of the deeper observations:

- the Greek people as individuals, as members of a local group, as a nation, as members of the EU, or as citizens of a globalized economy

- the Greeks mentality within the historical framework of the volatile Balkans; what does it take for them to live and work together with their neighbors?

- Greek neglect toward the concept of time and schedule, toward central planning; compared say to German and Swiss train running like clockwork, to us Americans working in large companies and feeling prisoners of organizations and schedules (like Charlie Chaplin in Modern Times)

- fresh food: comparing our bland tasting potatoes, tomatoes, grapes to the biodiversity found in a Greek farmer's market

- I was quite impressed by the architectural ideas in the Greek Islands: were all the surprisingly fresh shapes and colors a local tradition, or a recent development?

- transportation integration: there must be a better way to address the situation

I'll wait till the search engine works again to see whether such topics have "caught fire" in the past, whether the moderators on the Greece forum (Travelerjan, GeoffHamer, Heimdall, Stanbr, Brotherleelove, etc) are interested.

travelerjan

Tableronde I think your proposed topic(s) really would resonate with regular contributors to the Greek segment of Fodor's forum.

I think they'd be likelier to respond to a new thread than to the end of a very long trip-report thread. Maybe something on the order of: Greece vis a vis US/UK -- cultural parallels and contrasts.

THere are SO many aspects to this that occur to me on each succeeding trip ... the influence of long domination by foreign powers (from 100AD - 1912AD nearly 2 millenia, Greece was ruled/occupied by outsiders)... the role/nonrole of religion ... modern Greek "reclaiming" of its ancient history/culture vs. Europe's long scorn of post-classic Greek population. So much so much.

The sophistication/imagination that emerges in facets of modern Greek culture side-by-side with frustrating parochial "peasant" attitudes (distrust of govt, the 'crony' approach to law).

For the sophistication/humor etc -- Contrast the opening/closing ceremonies of the 2004 Olympics with the (frightening) Chinese 2008 approach.

Do start a new thread ... it would be a welcome change from the inquiries about "which luxury hotel in Oia has the best view of the caldera"?

tr2

I would also welcome a deeper immersion into the multi-faceted aspects of visiting a country like Greece. I'd find it interesting to compare to similar regions, such as the Italian Mezzogiorno (especially Sicily), which seems to be stuck in the past much more than Greece, or vs East European countries that have very quickly gotten on the EU bandwagon (Poland, the Czech Republic Hungary).

Then we could look at ourselves. Anointed in the post-WW II war and post Cold War era as leaders of the world, and no loosing our grip on this honor and responsibility, we'd better show higher sensitivity in interfacing with the less fortunate.

One personal addition to your story: upon reentry from Europe into the US, one has to fill out an agricultural questionnaire, declaring whether or not one has come into contact with farm animals. The customs agent accepted only YES or NO answers, no in-between explanations. So after hiking in the mountains and photographing roadside goat herds in Greece … would I get quarantined and fumigated?

tr2

Typo correction:

"... and now -- in the wake of the financial crisis -- loosing our grip on this honor and responsibility ..."

Chania

I am bringing this down to a much lower Fodor's level but it is Jan's words that did it. "We had artichokes in wine sauce that made us gasp with pleasure." This reminded me of a trip to Chania. Yes the waterfront is fine for drinks or even a lunch but dinnertime is further back from the waterfront. I had an appetizer of blended feta, olive oil, oregano & avocado with pita that was to die for, which I have made several times at home. Sorry for the digression to a very interesting discussion. oh I digress further, while on a visit to the village of Olympos on the island of Karpathos after having a great lunch of artichokes with white wine sauce, I came across a couple of women shucking artichokes into a bucket next to the restaurant captured on my camera. Food is always a memorable part of a vacation.

tableronde

I have now completed a quick survey of topics discussed on Fodor's (search engine still down), Trip Advisor and a few other travel forums / blogs.

Being only a casual visitor to this forum, but serious traveler, I have to agree with Travelerjan's sharp remark above: I find shocking the overbearing percentage of posts concentrating on transport, accommodations, tours, restaurants, beaches; this in the sense of exploiting a tourist destination's resources for amusement, without expressing an appreciation and understanding of its modern day society, economy, geography.

It's a bit like being invited to grandma's house for a Thanksgiving dinner, and leaving without saying thank you, or asking how she's doing.

Maybe I don't see the full picture. Could it be that we spend so much time on travel and running around between attractions listed in our checklist, that we don't have time left to shift into relaxation and observation mode?

I have read a few publications about southern Italy's "art of doing nothing", spending the whole afternoon socializing with friends in a cafe about the purpose of life. Maybe this way of life extends to the whole Mediterranean coast. And maybe the "southerners" are puzzled about the "northerners" not being able to relax.

Heimdall

<i>I find shocking the overbearing percentage of posts concentrating on transport, accommodations, tours, restaurants, beaches...</i>

Tableronde, I do agree, but don't find it shocking. Many posters are new to Greece, and don't have the confidence to set out without detailed planning, or in some cases a guided tour.

The basic needs of every traveller are transport, accommodation, and food. Rather like in <i>Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs</i>, they must be satisfied first, hence the frequency of posts on those subjects.

I have enjoyed your insights, and admire your relaxed style of travel. Clearly you took the time to observe the Greek way of life, and came away with far more than a list of places visited. You have produced some of the most interesting trip reports I have seen. Thank you.

tableronde

Travelerjan is right: the REFLECTION topics mentioned above each deserve their own separate thread.

Here is my first test post: http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=35170488
Reflections on the architecture of Santorini

I wish the forum had more powerful tools beyond hyperlinks to connect the posts on such multi-dimensional aspects of enjoying Greece. Also that multiple customized tags were available for future searchers.