Evening footwear for men in Italy
May 18th, 2010, 11:52 PM
#22
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi Arizona,
I live here, so I thought I'd chime in. There is a philosophy code in Italy---it's called "La Bella Figura"--which essentially is a way of expressing beauty, aestethics, good image and proper behavior, (all of this as seen by others)---in other words your outwards appearance. Italians are VERY concerned with always maintaining "un Bella Figura", which in the case of your husband's shoes would depend on where you plan on going.
If you are going to beach/resorts/lake areas then sandals or even flip flops would go unnoticed. However if you took the same ensemble into La Scala to see an opera, perhaps people might look at you curiosly. Most Italian men in the summer would probably throw on a pair of moccasins, or slip-on loafers. These won't take up alot of space in the luggage and would make even a pair of cargo shorts that little bit more elegant. My husband would personally throw them in.
At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of restaurant you choose to go to, it's obvious that in certain michelin starred restaurants a pair of shoes might be regarded better , but in a pizzeria/osteria/trattoria, sandals would be fine. In the big tourist cities like Rome and Florence, I doubt the shoes will be an issue, if you look around you'll probably always find other TOURISTS dressed the same(the Italians will probably have closed shoes). In the end YOU may feel more comfortable entering a fancy restaurant with you husband's toes covered, I'm sure that the restuarant owner will be happy enough to take your money either way!
As for the House wine issue, Italy is a producer of many wonderful wines. and as someone mentioned, many osterias/trattorias actually take much pride in offering a local wine on tap. Of course this all depends on the restuarant you choose, some wines will be better than others---you can always order a 1/4 liter to try and decide yourself.
BTW, the dollar is getting stronger and the Euro weaker, so perhaps you can forget the shoes at home and buy a new pair as a souvenir! Oh yeah FYI, a big difference between Italians and tourists is that Italians generally don't order a cappucino after 12 noon.
Buon Viaggio!
I live here, so I thought I'd chime in. There is a philosophy code in Italy---it's called "La Bella Figura"--which essentially is a way of expressing beauty, aestethics, good image and proper behavior, (all of this as seen by others)---in other words your outwards appearance. Italians are VERY concerned with always maintaining "un Bella Figura", which in the case of your husband's shoes would depend on where you plan on going.
If you are going to beach/resorts/lake areas then sandals or even flip flops would go unnoticed. However if you took the same ensemble into La Scala to see an opera, perhaps people might look at you curiosly. Most Italian men in the summer would probably throw on a pair of moccasins, or slip-on loafers. These won't take up alot of space in the luggage and would make even a pair of cargo shorts that little bit more elegant. My husband would personally throw them in.
At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of restaurant you choose to go to, it's obvious that in certain michelin starred restaurants a pair of shoes might be regarded better , but in a pizzeria/osteria/trattoria, sandals would be fine. In the big tourist cities like Rome and Florence, I doubt the shoes will be an issue, if you look around you'll probably always find other TOURISTS dressed the same(the Italians will probably have closed shoes). In the end YOU may feel more comfortable entering a fancy restaurant with you husband's toes covered, I'm sure that the restuarant owner will be happy enough to take your money either way!
As for the House wine issue, Italy is a producer of many wonderful wines. and as someone mentioned, many osterias/trattorias actually take much pride in offering a local wine on tap. Of course this all depends on the restuarant you choose, some wines will be better than others---you can always order a 1/4 liter to try and decide yourself.
BTW, the dollar is getting stronger and the Euro weaker, so perhaps you can forget the shoes at home and buy a new pair as a souvenir! Oh yeah FYI, a big difference between Italians and tourists is that Italians generally don't order a cappucino after 12 noon.
Buon Viaggio!
May 19th, 2010, 01:25 AM
#24
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Still, I get startled by the aggressiveness of some posters here on this forum (maybe too many drinks?).
As a European, I am trying to give the best answers about etiquette in Europe if somebody asks for it.
As a European, I am trying to give the best answers about etiquette in Europe if somebody asks for it.
May 19th, 2010, 01:36 AM
#25
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 57,890
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If I'm going to a nicerestaurant for dinnerI definitely do NOT want to lookatsomestrangeman's hairy and probabl dirty feet while eating it. (I dare anyone to walk any distance in a cobblestoned city street ad still have clean feet. This is not walking from a house to a car to a mall - this is walkiing city streets (which are hundreds of years old, uneven, filled with crevasses and potholes - and dirt).
IMHO if a man can't be bothered to wear real shoes, real pants and a realshirt - at a minimum- to dinner he should stick to casuale cafes and tavola caldas.
IMHO if a man can't be bothered to wear real shoes, real pants and a realshirt - at a minimum- to dinner he should stick to casuale cafes and tavola caldas.
May 19th, 2010, 01:49 AM
#26
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,060
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have had two outstanding experiences with house wines.
One was in a small backstreet restaurant where the house red was one of the best wines I have ever tasted.
The other was in a more touristy place where the house wine actually had no bouquet. It was wine coloured water to all intents and purposes.
One was in a small backstreet restaurant where the house red was one of the best wines I have ever tasted.
The other was in a more touristy place where the house wine actually had no bouquet. It was wine coloured water to all intents and purposes.
May 19th, 2010, 02:00 AM
#27
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,585
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I remember going to a nice restaurant in Venice one evening.
We were both dressed for the evening, slightly more smartly than during the day.
All the tables seemed to have reserved notices. I told the waiter that we had not reserved but asked if he had a table.
He did.
Shortly after, a couple dressed in shorts etc. asked and were told that unfortunately all tables were reserved. The waiter was very polite and apologetic and pointed to the reserved notices.
A few minutes after that, a well-dressed young couple had also not reserved, but were found a table.
We were both dressed for the evening, slightly more smartly than during the day.
All the tables seemed to have reserved notices. I told the waiter that we had not reserved but asked if he had a table.
He did.
Shortly after, a couple dressed in shorts etc. asked and were told that unfortunately all tables were reserved. The waiter was very polite and apologetic and pointed to the reserved notices.
A few minutes after that, a well-dressed young couple had also not reserved, but were found a table.
May 19th, 2010, 02:24 AM
#28
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"The days of four courses are long gone".
Well, if you order an antipasto, some meat or fish, a vegetable and a dessert you've got a 4-course Italian meal.
What Echanton meant to say, I am sure, is that it is not done to walk into a restaurant and order pasta and nothing else.
Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?
As to not wanting to eat in open-air, it is not as unusual as you say in Southern Europe. Who would want to eat under a scorching sun and risk getting pidgeon droppings in his plate?
Well, if you order an antipasto, some meat or fish, a vegetable and a dessert you've got a 4-course Italian meal.
What Echanton meant to say, I am sure, is that it is not done to walk into a restaurant and order pasta and nothing else.
Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?
As to not wanting to eat in open-air, it is not as unusual as you say in Southern Europe. Who would want to eat under a scorching sun and risk getting pidgeon droppings in his plate?
May 19th, 2010, 04:31 AM
#29
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i><font color=#777777>""The days of four courses are long gone"."</font></i>
In the context of the discussion, my statement should be read as, "Restaurants requiring customers to consume four courses are few and far between."
<i><font color=#777777>"Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?"</font></i>
Those who do a little study before packing their bags will know that pasta <b>is not</b> and <b>never has been</b> an indigenous dish in Venice. Historically speaking, polenta is the starch of choice there. But many tourists are ignorant and go to Venice assuming that spaghetti can be found in every corner of the country. And since Venice gets its share of ignorant tourists, some restaurants there feel a need to post a sign to prevent them from entering. The stern signage has nothing to do with ordering one course.
In the context of the discussion, my statement should be read as, "Restaurants requiring customers to consume four courses are few and far between."
<i><font color=#777777>"Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?"</font></i>
Those who do a little study before packing their bags will know that pasta <b>is not</b> and <b>never has been</b> an indigenous dish in Venice. Historically speaking, polenta is the starch of choice there. But many tourists are ignorant and go to Venice assuming that spaghetti can be found in every corner of the country. And since Venice gets its share of ignorant tourists, some restaurants there feel a need to post a sign to prevent them from entering. The stern signage has nothing to do with ordering one course.
May 19th, 2010, 04:50 AM
#30
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ROFL ..... ask any waiter in Venice (or elsewere in Italy for that matter) - that is if you have bothered to study a little Italian before packing your bag - and they'll tell you they don't want people to walk in, order a dish of pasta and nothing else and leave after having eaten on the cheap.
But you probably think that pasta e fagioli and pasta al nero cannot be found in Venice and Veneto.
Your condescending tone is very amusing especially to someone born to an Italian mother
But you probably think that pasta e fagioli and pasta al nero cannot be found in Venice and Veneto.
Your condescending tone is very amusing especially to someone born to an Italian mother
May 19th, 2010, 05:28 AM
#31
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You can roll on the floor laughing as much as you like. Having an Italian mother does not make you an authority on Venetian culture. I don't find your condescending tone amusing at all. I never said pasta "can't be found" in Venice. Maybe someone else here will appreciate your lack of knowledge and distortions.
May 19th, 2010, 05:44 AM
#32
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmmm, not to contradict but......
Perhaps I'm living in a different Italy, but in all honesty, I've never had problems ordering a "simple" pasta dish anywhere. This is a very common request of many parents for kids, Most restaurants are more than happy to accommodate a "pasta in bianco" (plain old boiled pasta with olive oil and cheese) or a "pasta pomodoro" simple tomato sauce. Even in Venezia.
Venezia is really such a touristic city, that it is very hard to eat "very well" there, sure there are thousands of restaurants, but I am talking about the ones where the Veneziane go. Personally when I go to Venezia I tend to eat more traditional food as baccala (in all its many forms) which is always served with polenta. But another very popular way of eating well (and inexpensively) in Venezia is to "andar per bàcari o cicheti".
Anyway wasn't this a discussion about shoes?
Must say this whole discussion has made me hungry.......
Perhaps I'm living in a different Italy, but in all honesty, I've never had problems ordering a "simple" pasta dish anywhere. This is a very common request of many parents for kids, Most restaurants are more than happy to accommodate a "pasta in bianco" (plain old boiled pasta with olive oil and cheese) or a "pasta pomodoro" simple tomato sauce. Even in Venezia.
Venezia is really such a touristic city, that it is very hard to eat "very well" there, sure there are thousands of restaurants, but I am talking about the ones where the Veneziane go. Personally when I go to Venezia I tend to eat more traditional food as baccala (in all its many forms) which is always served with polenta. But another very popular way of eating well (and inexpensively) in Venezia is to "andar per bàcari o cicheti".
Anyway wasn't this a discussion about shoes?
Must say this whole discussion has made me hungry.......
May 19th, 2010, 06:32 AM
#33
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i><font color=#777777>"Anyway wasn't this a discussion about shoes?"</font></i>
I thought the discussion was about an Arizona (by way of Manhattan and Los Angeles) man flashing his naked toes, exposing his dirty digits at a few "nice" restaurants in Rome or Tuscany because he liked to travel light.
I thought the discussion was about an Arizona (by way of Manhattan and Los Angeles) man flashing his naked toes, exposing his dirty digits at a few "nice" restaurants in Rome or Tuscany because he liked to travel light.
May 19th, 2010, 07:21 AM
#34
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
" Having an Italian mother does not make you an authority on Venetian culture."
Of course not. Not having one either.
"Maybe someone else here will appreciate your lack of knowledge and distortions."
Probably the same people who appreciate your arrogance.
Of course not. Not having one either.
"Maybe someone else here will appreciate your lack of knowledge and distortions."
Probably the same people who appreciate your arrogance.
May 19th, 2010, 07:44 AM
#35
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The "substantial sandals" referred to in the original post are high quality, leather, and toes are covered.
Thanks to those who offered their perspective in kindness. Epcrema, especially for La Bella Figura.
NYCFoodSnob: "Arizona man?" YOU made it about that, twice. And about naked toes and dirty digits. Your forum personality works really hard to soil and spoil what could be a helpful, fun and positive communal experience. And reveals a poisonous inner life in the process, which a smiley face does not ammeliorate. Please don't reply to my posts, we'll be better served (and happier) without the view from your perspective.
Thanks to those who offered their perspective in kindness. Epcrema, especially for La Bella Figura.
NYCFoodSnob: "Arizona man?" YOU made it about that, twice. And about naked toes and dirty digits. Your forum personality works really hard to soil and spoil what could be a helpful, fun and positive communal experience. And reveals a poisonous inner life in the process, which a smiley face does not ammeliorate. Please don't reply to my posts, we'll be better served (and happier) without the view from your perspective.
May 19th, 2010, 07:48 AM
#36
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OP wanted some advice about etiquette in "nice" restaurants in Rome and Tuscany. The original question focused on footwear, but we tried to extend the etiquette question a bit and to give hints how to feel comfortable and how to be treated well in "nice" restaurants.
What counts, is always the overall picture. When you go into a restaurant well-dressed, when you order an apéritif and a nice bottle of wine, but when you skip the main course because you aren't that hungry or you are suffering from gout, then you are fine. When you are just coming from a hike in shorts and hiking boots and you order a four-course meal for lunch and a good bottle of wine, you will also be treated well.
But when you are wearing shorts and sandals AND when you are ordering just a bowl of spaghetti AND the cheap house wine, THEN everything cries "parsimonious tourist who will never come back". You can do that when you go to a simple trattoria, but when you go for dinner to a good restaurant you should be dressed properly and order properly, otherwise it can happen what happened to MissPrism. Or you will be seated but served the appetizers from the day before or the dessert that did not turn out quite so well..
We just want to give OP the best possible advice and it is quite hard to understand why some posters use this thread to start a heated argument. It also puzzles me when non-Europeans insist in knowing European etiquette better than Europeans.
What counts, is always the overall picture. When you go into a restaurant well-dressed, when you order an apéritif and a nice bottle of wine, but when you skip the main course because you aren't that hungry or you are suffering from gout, then you are fine. When you are just coming from a hike in shorts and hiking boots and you order a four-course meal for lunch and a good bottle of wine, you will also be treated well.
But when you are wearing shorts and sandals AND when you are ordering just a bowl of spaghetti AND the cheap house wine, THEN everything cries "parsimonious tourist who will never come back". You can do that when you go to a simple trattoria, but when you go for dinner to a good restaurant you should be dressed properly and order properly, otherwise it can happen what happened to MissPrism. Or you will be seated but served the appetizers from the day before or the dessert that did not turn out quite so well..
We just want to give OP the best possible advice and it is quite hard to understand why some posters use this thread to start a heated argument. It also puzzles me when non-Europeans insist in knowing European etiquette better than Europeans.
May 19th, 2010, 08:04 AM
#37
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,893
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<i><font color=#777777>"Your forum personality works really hard to soil and spoil what could be a helpful, fun and positive communal experience. And reveals a poisonous inner life in the process, which a smiley face does not ammeliorate."</font></i>
Poison? Oh, dahling, your projection of me is pure fantasy. I am helpful, fun, and always an optimist. To enjoy me, it helps to have a sense of humor and only take me seriously when I offer travel advice. My last post, answering epcrema's question, was a complete joke. Too bad you missed that.
Poison? Oh, dahling, your projection of me is pure fantasy. I am helpful, fun, and always an optimist. To enjoy me, it helps to have a sense of humor and only take me seriously when I offer travel advice.
My last post, answering epcrema's question, was a complete joke. Too bad you missed that.
May 19th, 2010, 08:04 AM
#38
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 17,549
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wasn't aware that the OP had talked about wearing shorts so how did THAT get into this mix?
I would agree that you can ALLOW yourself to be treated "differently" depending on what you wear but please bear in mind that the nicest restaurants and the attitudes that go with them where you LIVE are NOT necessarily the same as the nicest restaurants you are planning to eat in IN ITALY.
Yes, men wear sandals there and some of those sandals cost HUNDREDS of Euros and "Mr Dress Code" above can say what he wants but I can tell you, from experience, that you are not going to be treated like dirt unless you look AND ACT like it.
I would agree that you can ALLOW yourself to be treated "differently" depending on what you wear but please bear in mind that the nicest restaurants and the attitudes that go with them where you LIVE are NOT necessarily the same as the nicest restaurants you are planning to eat in IN ITALY.
Yes, men wear sandals there and some of those sandals cost HUNDREDS of Euros and "Mr Dress Code" above can say what he wants but I can tell you, from experience, that you are not going to be treated like dirt unless you look AND ACT like it.
May 19th, 2010, 12:21 PM
#39
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
arizonaa;
You're original post noted....
"Bringing substantial sandals appropriate for all but nicest restaurants here in the southwest"
If he is comfortable with them, substatial sandals should be
O.K. for all but the "few nice restaurants" you visit.
For those maybe he would be more comfortable if his footwear choice is the same as he wears at the "nicest restaurants here in the southwest"
"A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval".......
Mark Twain
Have a great trip.
You're original post noted....
"Bringing substantial sandals appropriate for all but nicest restaurants here in the southwest"
If he is comfortable with them, substatial sandals should be
O.K. for all but the "few nice restaurants" you visit.
For those maybe he would be more comfortable if his footwear choice is the same as he wears at the "nicest restaurants here in the southwest"
"A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval".......
Mark Twain
Have a great trip.
May 19th, 2010, 01:29 PM
#40
"Fifth pitfall: Order Chianti. Or Barolo."
So when I ordered a bottle of Chianti in the hills of Chianti I was an idiot? Can that cool, know-it-all celebrity chef guy tell if it is stupid to order a Manhattan when I visit Manhattan this fall? I'll be waiting anxiously for his answer.
So when I ordered a bottle of Chianti in the hills of Chianti I was an idiot? Can that cool, know-it-all celebrity chef guy tell if it is stupid to order a Manhattan when I visit Manhattan this fall? I'll be waiting anxiously for his answer.
