Evening footwear for men in Italy
May 18th, 2010, 07:19 AM
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Evening footwear for men in Italy
Husband packing. Bringing substantial sandals appropriate for all but nicest restaurants here in the southwest -- question is, should he pack full shoes for the few nice restaurants we will want to visit in Rome and Tuscany?
May 18th, 2010, 07:31 AM
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If you really want to go to nice restaurants, pack proper shoes. You will definitely be treated better than with sandals. Italians value shoes very high.
http://www.verycool.it/2008/05/08/bo...e-ed-eleganza/
http://www.verycool.it/2008/05/08/bo...e-ed-eleganza/
May 18th, 2010, 11:45 AM
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Have you ever read "Kitchen Confidential" by Anthony Bourdin?
If yes, you would know that patrons are classified when they enter a restaurant and when they order. Bourdin writes graphically what happens if someone orders a steak well-done.
In Italy, as well as in other European countries, the same thing happens.
I used to work in Rome and visited quite a few restaurants. And often, I would observe how American tourists were treated and how they looked when they got their meal and how they complained afterwards ("we were so disappointed by the Italian food - the only good meal that we got was at the Holiday Inn's restaurant").
It is not the fact that they are Americans - the Italians love Americans and even adopted American cuisine to one of their national dishes, spaghetti carbonara. It is the fact that some tourists (not only American tourists, also tourists from other countries) DISRESPECT their culture. And, I have to say that, people like J62 (there are others) deliberately disrespect their culture.
There are a few pitfalls for visitors:
First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside.
Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts. Or sandals. Or, to make it worse, both.
Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses: antipasti, pasti, secondo piatto, dolce. If you order four courses, the waiter will smile knowingly - even if you wear shorts and sandals.
Fourth pitfall: Order tab water and nothing else. Or order cola. Or order the cheap house wine (which comes from North Africa or Chile).
Fifth pitfall: Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely. An open invitation to rip you off. If you order the regional wine (which is usually less expensive than Chianti or Barolo) they will love you because you appreciate their efforts and because they appreciate that you have read your guidebook.
If yes, you would know that patrons are classified when they enter a restaurant and when they order. Bourdin writes graphically what happens if someone orders a steak well-done.
In Italy, as well as in other European countries, the same thing happens.
I used to work in Rome and visited quite a few restaurants. And often, I would observe how American tourists were treated and how they looked when they got their meal and how they complained afterwards ("we were so disappointed by the Italian food - the only good meal that we got was at the Holiday Inn's restaurant").
It is not the fact that they are Americans - the Italians love Americans and even adopted American cuisine to one of their national dishes, spaghetti carbonara. It is the fact that some tourists (not only American tourists, also tourists from other countries) DISRESPECT their culture. And, I have to say that, people like J62 (there are others) deliberately disrespect their culture.
There are a few pitfalls for visitors:
First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside.
Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts. Or sandals. Or, to make it worse, both.
Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses: antipasti, pasti, secondo piatto, dolce. If you order four courses, the waiter will smile knowingly - even if you wear shorts and sandals.
Fourth pitfall: Order tab water and nothing else. Or order cola. Or order the cheap house wine (which comes from North Africa or Chile).
Fifth pitfall: Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely. An open invitation to rip you off. If you order the regional wine (which is usually less expensive than Chianti or Barolo) they will love you because you appreciate their efforts and because they appreciate that you have read your guidebook.
May 18th, 2010, 12:13 PM
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A few notes:
1) Men shouldn't wear sandals.
2) There is no such thing as nice sandals.
3) All that being said, nobody cares what you wear. Wear what you want. I guarantee that there will be at least one Italian in the restaurant that is dressed worse than your husband. I mean this. People joke about the cliched image of the Italian man with a greasy mullet and hairy chest peaking out of a cheap button-down shirt, but this cliche (unfortunately) exists.
4) Bear in mind that Anthony Bourdain, while exceedingly entertaining, ran a rather pedestrian restaurant of no real note. He should not be viewed as any sort of authority on dining, etiquette, or anything similar. FWIW, I believe I have seen him in sandals on his show.
5) What kind of restaurants serve North African wines? Seriously. The only people disrespecting anyone are the owners of such restaurants. Outside of Egypt, I have NEVER seen North African wines on a menu.
6) Should one take advice on wine from someone that has been to restaurants that serve North African wines? Probably not.
7) The reality is that, if you like Barolo or Chianti, a proper restaurant that actually gives two s**ts about wine will help guide you to one of these "great" regional wines, using your likes as a helpful guideline. Speaking categorically about how "regional" wines are better suggests that some like to paint themselves as superior, at the expense of genuinely trying to help people. Restaurants have a choice - rip you off or not - and those that would rip you off for ordering a Barolo, rather than an Amarone are pathetic, miserable excuses for restaurants. Unfortunately, there are a many such restaurants in Italy, and those that call them out on it are accused of "disrespecting the culture", when the reality is that we are simply sticking up for good wine and good wine service.
1) Men shouldn't wear sandals.
2) There is no such thing as nice sandals.
3) All that being said, nobody cares what you wear. Wear what you want. I guarantee that there will be at least one Italian in the restaurant that is dressed worse than your husband. I mean this. People joke about the cliched image of the Italian man with a greasy mullet and hairy chest peaking out of a cheap button-down shirt, but this cliche (unfortunately) exists.
4) Bear in mind that Anthony Bourdain, while exceedingly entertaining, ran a rather pedestrian restaurant of no real note. He should not be viewed as any sort of authority on dining, etiquette, or anything similar. FWIW, I believe I have seen him in sandals on his show.
5) What kind of restaurants serve North African wines? Seriously. The only people disrespecting anyone are the owners of such restaurants. Outside of Egypt, I have NEVER seen North African wines on a menu.
6) Should one take advice on wine from someone that has been to restaurants that serve North African wines? Probably not.
7) The reality is that, if you like Barolo or Chianti, a proper restaurant that actually gives two s**ts about wine will help guide you to one of these "great" regional wines, using your likes as a helpful guideline. Speaking categorically about how "regional" wines are better suggests that some like to paint themselves as superior, at the expense of genuinely trying to help people. Restaurants have a choice - rip you off or not - and those that would rip you off for ordering a Barolo, rather than an Amarone are pathetic, miserable excuses for restaurants. Unfortunately, there are a many such restaurants in Italy, and those that call them out on it are accused of "disrespecting the culture", when the reality is that we are simply sticking up for good wine and good wine service.
May 18th, 2010, 12:34 PM
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Of course, you never seen North African wines of a menu. But have you ever seen where the "house wine" comes from?
Go to a supermarket. The cheapest wines you will find on the shelf are from North Africa or (increasingly) from Chile. What do you expect from a "house wine" in a restaurant? A second wine from a Brunello di Montalcino? C'mon, it is the cheapest wine available. And most probably, the "house wine" in an Italian restaurant is not from Italy.
I am saying that because I always read that some (not all) Fodorites recommend ordering the "house wine". I would not do that. And travelgourmet is right: the better restaurants do not have a nondescript "house wine".
A second thought about regional wines: Regional wines are often the best choice because they contain the same minerals as the produce from the region that you eat, so flavours match perfectly. It is a matter of soil. This is the reason why wines which taste wonderfully during a vacation are often disappointing when you bring them home.
Go to a supermarket. The cheapest wines you will find on the shelf are from North Africa or (increasingly) from Chile. What do you expect from a "house wine" in a restaurant? A second wine from a Brunello di Montalcino? C'mon, it is the cheapest wine available. And most probably, the "house wine" in an Italian restaurant is not from Italy.
I am saying that because I always read that some (not all) Fodorites recommend ordering the "house wine". I would not do that. And travelgourmet is right: the better restaurants do not have a nondescript "house wine".
A second thought about regional wines: Regional wines are often the best choice because they contain the same minerals as the produce from the region that you eat, so flavours match perfectly. It is a matter of soil. This is the reason why wines which taste wonderfully during a vacation are often disappointing when you bring them home.
May 18th, 2010, 12:34 PM
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5) "What kind of restaurants serve North African wines? Seriously. The only people disrespecting anyone are the owners of such restaurants. Outside of Egypt, I have NEVER seen North African wines on a menu."
Your loss. Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia make excellent wines. Just because you've never seen them on a menu does not mean they do not exist or that it is disrespectful to serve them in a restaurant. Try a Boulaouane Gris or a Guerrouane with lamb or a Sidi Brahim with couscous ........
Your loss. Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia make excellent wines. Just because you've never seen them on a menu does not mean they do not exist or that it is disrespectful to serve them in a restaurant. Try a Boulaouane Gris or a Guerrouane with lamb or a Sidi Brahim with couscous ........
May 18th, 2010, 01:12 PM
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I aagree that there are many very nice wines from North Africa. I can't recall ever seeing them on the wine list of a European restaurant that wasn't Moroccan, Tunisian, Algerian, Libyan, etc., though.
May 18th, 2010, 01:15 PM
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Well back to your question, arizonaa. I assume you husband has a good looking pair of leather loafers or laced shoes and if so that would be good to wear when going to dinner, especially in Rome. When you say Tuscany do you mean the countryside versus Florence? Even than I would consider a pair of leather shoes more appropriate. So would the Italians. They do have a love affair with shoes. Anyway, if your husband refuses to do so I can assure you that the fashion police won't write a citation but I also would think he would end up wishing he had more than just sandals to wear.
Wishing you a beautiful trip and wonderful meals!
Wishing you a beautiful trip and wonderful meals!
May 18th, 2010, 02:14 PM
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Rome and Tuscany are not Capri and Positano. Sandals in the summer have their place in Italy: an elegant restaurant in Rome and/or Panzano is not the place for sandals on an Arizona male.
<i><font color=#777777>"First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside."</font></i>
I'm not sure what this "pitfall" business means but the above statement is ridiculously laughable. Romans invented the art of dining outdoors, especially in a piazza that is closed to vehicular traffic. I've worked with several Italian film crews and, when given a choice, everyone prefers to eat outdoors unless it's raining. Even then, some refuse to come inside.
<i><font color=#777777>"Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts."</font></i>
Italian men wear shorts but these men are not often found in the bigger cities. If you visit the country in August and/or the smaller resort towns, you'll see plenty of locals schlepping in shorts. Last August, my favorite born-and-raised-in-Italy bar owner on Lake Como wore cargo shorts and sandals all summer long. Of course, tourists stand out when they wear shorts because they still look like (tacky) tourists. An Italian can spot an Italian a mile away, same with a tacky tourist.
<i><font color=#777777>"Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses"</font></i>
The days of four courses are long gone. This rule may still apply to the fabric-clothed ristoranti but, even then, Italians are eating less these days. Health conscience is now a global concept. When in doubt, simply ask if one course is OK before being seated.
<i><font color=#777777>"order the cheap house wine"</font></i>
Many restaurants in Italy take pride in the wine chosen as "house." You have to ask, you have to taste. Many Italians think it's silly to pay a lot of money for wine. Many restaurant owners know the lower-priced jewels.
<i><font color=#777777>"Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely."</font></i>
How silly. If you're having steak, order a rich, full-bodied red. If you absolutely love a Barolo in August, order what you love.
Some Fodorites say the silliest things.
<i><font color=#777777>"First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside."</font></i>
I'm not sure what this "pitfall" business means but the above statement is ridiculously laughable. Romans invented the art of dining outdoors, especially in a piazza that is closed to vehicular traffic. I've worked with several Italian film crews and, when given a choice, everyone prefers to eat outdoors unless it's raining. Even then, some refuse to come inside.
<i><font color=#777777>"Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts."</font></i>
Italian men wear shorts but these men are not often found in the bigger cities. If you visit the country in August and/or the smaller resort towns, you'll see plenty of locals schlepping in shorts. Last August, my favorite born-and-raised-in-Italy bar owner on Lake Como wore cargo shorts and sandals all summer long. Of course, tourists stand out when they wear shorts because they still look like (tacky) tourists. An Italian can spot an Italian a mile away, same with a tacky tourist.
<i><font color=#777777>"Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses"</font></i>
The days of four courses are long gone. This rule may still apply to the fabric-clothed ristoranti but, even then, Italians are eating less these days. Health conscience is now a global concept. When in doubt, simply ask if one course is OK before being seated.
<i><font color=#777777>"order the cheap house wine"</font></i>
Many restaurants in Italy take pride in the wine chosen as "house." You have to ask, you have to taste. Many Italians think it's silly to pay a lot of money for wine. Many restaurant owners know the lower-priced jewels.
<i><font color=#777777>"Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely."</font></i>
How silly. If you're having steak, order a rich, full-bodied red. If you absolutely love a Barolo in August, order what you love.
Some Fodorites say the silliest things.
May 18th, 2010, 04:25 PM
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I am fairly new to the Fodor Community and this is all very interesting -- the twists and turns in the post, and the assumptions. After the recent legislative debacles in AZ, I tried unsuccessfully to change my screenname. I'll share that we live in Arizona by way of decades in each Manhattan and Los Angeles. The variously helpful, humorous, self-serving, snobby, snarky, and even insulting replies prompted a discussion between my (non-neanderthal) husband (who owns Italian shoes but likes to travel light) and I about how we wouldn't want visitors from other countries to feel they needed to change their apparel to obtain good service in the United States. (Should a Parisian woman forsake her elegantly scarved ensemble for the U.S. stereotype of velour and running shoes? Or the jeans, faded T-shirts and uncombed hair of our royalty, "celebrities" who command the best tables and service?)
In the end, we received some answers to our simple question. So this was helpful. And a little sad. I hope the Italians are more welcoming.
In the end, we received some answers to our simple question. So this was helpful. And a little sad. I hope the Italians are more welcoming.
May 18th, 2010, 05:58 PM
#18
This post has indeed taken some twists and turns. The Italians you encounter at restaurants will likely be more welcoming than people on Fodor's. Just take a look at the thread asking for opinions about European beaches! Which restaurants specifically are you planning to visit in Rome? And what do the sandals look like? If it's hotter than Hades I could see perhaps certain types of sandals at chic-but-not-ultra-fancy restos in Rome.
Have a great trip. I don't think the shoes will be a big deal.
Have a great trip. I don't think the shoes will be a big deal.
May 18th, 2010, 07:20 PM
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<i><font color=#777777>"...prompted a discussion between my (non-neanderthal) husband (who owns Italian shoes but likes to travel light) and I about how we wouldn't want visitors from other countries to feel they needed to change their apparel to obtain good service in the United States."</font></i>
The United States is a melting pot of cultures, tastes and languages. Anything goes here. Well, almost anything. Italy is more homogenous, even though there is a north and a south and what they think of each other.
<i><font color=#777777>"Should a Parisian woman forsake her elegantly scarved ensemble for the U.S. stereotype of velour and running shoes?"</font></i>
I don't see where men's naked toes fit in with that question. Some cultures revere naked feet in public, others do not. Italian shoes are a leading commodity in Italy. (Italian) Sandals with exposed toes (which is what people assume when you use the word sandal) are made for a non-Italian market. Or they're worn in appropriate places, regardless of what you paid for them. Would you wear Crocs and enter St. Peter's? Crocs travel light.
When you ask a clothing question on Fodor's, you hold on tight and prepare for the ride. Obviously, your husband can wear whatever he likes on his feet. Nobody here can stop him. But, truth be told, there are a lot of people here who hope you will spare him any possible embarrassment and encourage him to look his appropriate best at all times. Packing these days is a bitch but one pair of dress shoes for that special evening dinner won't kill anybody. And if they tip the scale, you can run out and buy lighter luggage. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Have a lovely trip.
The United States is a melting pot of cultures, tastes and languages. Anything goes here. Well, almost anything. Italy is more homogenous, even though there is a north and a south and what they think of each other.
<i><font color=#777777>"Should a Parisian woman forsake her elegantly scarved ensemble for the U.S. stereotype of velour and running shoes?"</font></i>
I don't see where men's naked toes fit in with that question. Some cultures revere naked feet in public, others do not. Italian shoes are a leading commodity in Italy. (Italian) Sandals with exposed toes (which is what people assume when you use the word sandal) are made for a non-Italian market. Or they're worn in appropriate places, regardless of what you paid for them. Would you wear Crocs and enter St. Peter's? Crocs travel light.
When you ask a clothing question on Fodor's, you hold on tight and prepare for the ride. Obviously, your husband can wear whatever he likes on his feet. Nobody here can stop him. But, truth be told, there are a lot of people here who hope you will spare him any possible embarrassment and encourage him to look his appropriate best at all times. Packing these days is a bitch but one pair of dress shoes for that special evening dinner won't kill anybody. And if they tip the scale, you can run out and buy lighter luggage. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Have a lovely trip.
