Hello Everyone,

My husband and I are going to Europe for the first time in April and we have 12 days. Like everyone else, I have spent a great deal of time researching different areas and itineraries. We would like to see some of the better known sites; however, we also like to get off the beaten path and enjoy the food and wineries and active pursuits. Our travel plans are as follows: We fly into Paris and then plan to connect directly to Rome. What we would like to do is to stay in Rome for 2 nights then travel by car up A-1 towards Tuscany stopping in the Umbria area and then over to Montalcino to visit the Abbey of Monte Oliveto Maggiore and then to Pienza and Sienna. The next stop would be a brief visit in Florence and North to Modena and Parma and on to Milan. From Milan we could take the overnight fast train to Paris or fly into Paris and stay for four additional nights. My questions are:

1. I have read different reviews regarding the driving in Italy. Is this route a difficult one to travel? If so, and we do not want to go by bus, would it be better to revisit the itinerary?

2. We would not be able to visit Venice given this itinerary, would it be better to work this in instead of Florence (as we are not wanting to spend all of our time in museums) and visit the Lake Como area and Venice area instead and travel up to Parma that way?

3. Is it easier to use a major city as a base, ex., Florence, and travel around to the other areas.

4. Any recommendations for a fun but serious Tuscany cooking class?

Thank you

This route is not particularly difficult, but you should not plan to pick up the car in the center of Rome. You can take the train back to the airport or perhaps find one at one of the railways stations.

Park in the peripheral parking lots in cities like Florence and Siena and walk into the "centro istorico," which is what the sign will generally say. Most city streets are restricted to locals with special stickers, and as many have found, traffic cameras will issue tickets that follow you all the way home through the car rental agency, accruing charges all the way.

Smaller places like Pienza and the monastery have well-marked parking areas.

I have picked up a car in Rome (AutoEurope recommended Europcar on Via Cipro for easy exit to Autostrada) made 2 turns and we were on our way.
I would do that gain. What I would not do again is drive in Florence! I would find a place to park and taxi in or make it your last stop before Milan and turn the car in and train to Milan. Because of the driving issues I would not base in Florence and do day trips.
The rest of your plan does not sound difficult at all.

Another option to see Florence would be to drive to Chiusi from Siena and take the train to Florence for the day.

Abby - when I'm planning a trip, I find it really useful to set it out in tabular form so as to get it straight in my head. donig that, this is what you've got:

day 1. Fly into Paris, connect to Rome. [why not just fly into Rome?]sleep Rome.
Day 2 - Rome
Day 3 - leave Rome [it wasn't built in a day and you can't see it in one day either!] Drive to Umbria.
Day 4 - Pienza [got a bit lost here - are you planning to stay in all these places or just visit them?]
Day 5 - Siena
Day 6 - Florence
Day 7 - milan
Day 8-12 - Paris.

to my mind, you are moving far too often. you could see some [sadly not all] of the places you are interested in by doing the following:

Day 1 - fly [open jaw] into Rome. Stop 3 nights. assuming you are arriving about breakfast time, this gives you nearly 3 full days. Not perfect, but much better.
Day 4 - train to Orvieto, pick up car, and drive to ? in Umbria. stay 2 nights. tour umbria
Day 6 - drive to Siena or Parma [sorry, in 8 nights you can't do it all] stay 2 nights.
Day 8 -drive to Milan, fly to Paris.

DO NOT think of driving in Rome [awful] or Florence [worse].

Have a great trip!

>>>Judy on Jan 14, 11 at 1:27pm Another option to see Florence would be to drive to Chiusi from Siena <<<

Why drive all the way to Chiusi to go to Florence? You can easily take a bus from Siena and be there in an hour. It would take an hour to drive from Siena to Chiusi and then another 1 1/2 - 2 hours to train from Chiusi to Florence.

With your list of places you want to see in Italy, you need to drop Paris and save France for your next trip. With only 12 days (does this count air travel days?), you barely have time for your cities in Italy unless you prefer to spend all your time in cars/planes/trains.

Not sure why you're flying into and out of Paris. It woud be esier to do an open jaw ticket - into Rome and out of Paris or vice versa - to avoid backtracking.

If you want to see off the beaten ttrack stay in one of the smaller cities.

Driving in Itlay (except in the center of ancient cities) is perfectly easy - as long as you are competent, confident and follow the rules of the road. They are extremely serious about not sitting in the left lane unless actually passing - and if you do so you can end up with a who knows what on your tail honking and flashng. But IMHO drivers in europe are by and large much better than in the US - and it's the ancient city street patterns and parking that are the only real issues.

I don't see Paris as a logical part of this whirlwind trip. And even if it must be part of it, why are you flying into Paris and not Rome?

Nice concept, but I too would skip Paris---too many logistics to handle. Plan to spend 5 days in Tuscany and forget driving in Florence. Here are some driving tips:


DRIVING IN ITALY & SOUTHERN EUROPE

Q. SHOULD WE DRIVE IN ITALY?
A. Of course you should if your driving skill & confidence would allow you to drive a rental car in Vermont, Colorado or California. But, be advised of these tips:
* Avoid driving in the major cities except for picking up or dropping cars
* Have good maps—study them in advance—and have a GOOD NAVIGATOR.
* Stay in the right lane except when passing and use your rear view mirrors

Q. WHAT CAR SHOULD I GET AND WHERE DO I GET IT?
A. It is best to rent your car before you leave for Europe. The best source we have found is www.autoeurope.com [800-223-5555] who is a broker for several car vendors. They will quote you prices to include the variables that are often omitted by others, such as unlimited mileage, mandatory insurance coverage with some deductibles, and VAT taxes. It is wise to compare prices and coverage with their sister company at www.kemwel.com. Autoeurope will match any comparable quote, and are famous for their customer satisfaction if problems do arise with the vendor. The best model will depend on your needs, but for best value we suggest you select a compact car with manual transmission. Automatics are available but will cost you about 30% more and may limit your model options & pick up locations.

Q. ARE ITALIAN DRIVERS AS CRAZY AS I HAVE HEARD?
A. Yes & no! They are certainly aggressive, but they are also more skilled than many USA drivers—both are a function of necessity. Italy is one of the most crowded countries in the world and the drivers have evolved these characteristics
* They are notorious tailgaters. If that bothers you, pull over and let them past.
* On the AUTOSTRADE they will drive fast, but will stay in the right lane except when passing and will use their blinkers when passing—YOU SHOULD TOO !
* They will often pass on 2-lane roads with traffic coming. Frankly, they expect you, and the oncoming car, to adjust to the shoulder and make 3 lanes of traffic.

OTHER ROAD TIPS FOR YOUR DRIVING SANITY:
1. Learn the meaning of the sign “ SENSO UNICO” and take heed [ONE WAY ].
2. Be sure to get your ticket when you enter the AUTOSTADA system & be prepared to pay the toll when you exit it [ rule of thumb—300 km=15 Euro]. You can use your credit card in the VIA lane at the toll both, or buy a debit VIACARD in advance.
3. Do NOT attempt to follow road numbers—that will frustrate you. But, do pay attention to the directional signs that point to your destination [ TO MONTALCINO]. And, be aware if that road leads eventually to a larger city [ ROMA—SIENA ETC.]
4. Unless you have a diesel car, you will want to fill the tank with benzina from the green pump. Most stations will pump gas for you and will take credit cards.

NOTE: As of 2005, an International Drivers Permit[IDP] is required in Italy.
You can obtain them from your local AAA office. You will need a valid US driver’s license, two passport photos, and $15. The photos can be taken at the AAA office.

For those who are still unfamiliar with limited traffic zones:

http://www.slowtrav.com/italy/drivin...s_speeding.htm

Abbynormal,
Suggest you recheck your route in southern tuscany. If coming from A1 you would get off it at Chiusi and continue to Pienza. From Pienza it depends on what abbey you are looking for. Near Montalcino is Sant'Antimo. If heading for Monte Oliveto Maggiore you would continue past the turn off for Montalcino and continue to Bounconvento then the turnoff to the abbey.

abbynormal,

Have you bought your air tickets yet? It made be a shade easier if you did this trip the other way around from what you are planning.

Leaving aside for the moment the issue of wanting to include Paris on this trip (I'll return to it later!), and only using your present wish list, I suggest you:

Begin in Paris. After that, fly to Milan's Linate airport, rent a car, drive to Parma/Modena. See those places, then drive car to a scenic locality place very near Siena for a few nights. You can see Siena and also use public transportation from Siena one of those days to get to Florence for a brief visit . Then proceed on with your car to visit MonteOliveto and Pienza, but get rid of the car in Chiusi or Orvieto and take the train to Rome. Depart for home from there.

As to the issue of whether Paris "makes sense" or "doesnt' fit" or "you shouldn't" go there -- how would anybody on Fodor's know that? True, many many travelers posting on Fodor's find it extremely disagreeable to (A) experience more than one European culture during the same trip, (B) take a plane flight during their trip (C) go at a fast pace on a trip (D) visit any city in Europe. You might not have their problems.

You will indeed be going at a gallop if you stick with completing your present wish list. And if you really mean it that you want to have part of your trip be off the beaten track, only Parma and Modena fit that description in your present wish list. So if you want get off the beaten track, you should think twice about embracing the standard formula for an American "under the Tuscan sun" vacation.

If you want to see something of Milan on this trip, not just use it for an airport, I suggest you fly from Paris into Malpensa, take the train to the city center, stow your bags at the train station, tour the town, pick up your bags, and proceed to Parma by train. You can rent a car in Parma.

And of course, you could start south with variations on what I posted above. Weather might be a factor.

Have a great trip whatever you do and wherever you go!

Here is more info on the International Driver's Permit, ZTL's in Rome, and Parking Garages (and parking options) in Rome. Since I ride a scooter often in Rome, I included a link about riding in Rome - and the videos make help you understand how difficult it is to drive in the cities. Driving in the cities can be challenging and confusing. Driving in the countryside (espcially Tuscany) is quite fun. Good Luck!

http://tinyurl.com/Italy-IDP
http://tinyurl.com/Rome-ZTL
http://tinyurl.com/Roma-Parking
http://tinyurl.com/rome-scooter

Any recommendations for a fun but serious Tuscany cooking class?

Simone does a great cooking class for up to 5 people. His link is www.malborghetto.net You arrive at 9 am, cook a 4 or 5 course meal and then eat your creations for lunch.

Abbynormal..We too are flying in and out of Paris for the simple reason that if you are using FF miles it was a much better value to fly in and out of Paris and the AirFrance flight from there to Rome is fairly inexpensive compared to cost of the miles and time to fly direct to Rome. So enjoy Paris as long as you have to be there anyway. We are doing the same thing only we are only going to do two nights in Paris. I have been combing this site for quite some time planning our trip to Italy for April and I have found all the information invaluable and posters seem to be very knowledgable.

"NOTE: As of 2005, an International Drivers Permit[IDP] is required in Italy."

Just in case you didn't pick it up, an IDP is a LEGAL requirement in Italy for US licence holders. That is LEGAL as it it needed to make your US licence valid for driving in Italy and LEGAL as in making your car insurance valid.

Hi Everyone,

Thank you for all of the great responses. I understand the question about flying into Paris and then to Rome, Island 45 has it correct. I found first class (business actually on Air France), non/stop to Paris and back for 100K each. I thought that was really good for April. Just one FF ticket to Rome was 275K. We have always wanted to go to Italy, and not we are also excited about Paris. I think that spending 2 nights in Paris instead of 4 is probably a good suggestion. We also may be able to add on a few days if we decide we want to stay. It sounds to me as if the driving in Italy is not as daunting as made to sound...plus we are used to driving around Atlanta so sounds similar. I have looked into the IDP from AAA and it seems an easy, quick and inexpensive process.


zeppole _ I like your suggestion of going north to south and then we can stay in Rome longer if we decide to before flying back to Paris. Is it not worth going to one of the Abby's to hear the chanting and see the grounds? I read so many good reviews about this stop. I have also read so many love/not so crazy for Florence reviews. Does this depend on your interests? Same thing for Venice. Are we missing out there? My sister did not like Venice at all but others love it.

jnjfraz - i will definitely look into the cooking class.

Has anyone spent a week cooking with the Women of Tuscany? I know it is later in the year, but it looks wonderful.

Thank you everyone!!!

abbynormal,

Yes, what people enjoy depends on their interests. I'm with your sister. How often do you share your sister's interests and tastes? (With my sister, it's only about 50-50. Her reactions don't much influence my travel plans.) Sometimes when I read Fodor's, I wonder if people ever realize that many people non-Christians who go to Italy spend a lot of time doing things the Christians don't. If you've never heard Gregorian chanting, you might want to drive out of your way to see it in Italy to hear it, and certainly many non-Christians enjoy it. I think the ruined Abbey of San Galgano is spectacularly beautiful, and the cloisters of the Abbey of MonteOliveto Maggiore are just a delight. If I'd never seen Sant'Antimo -- and how could I have avoided it, it's been photographed a zillion times, although without the adjacent huge parking lot -- I think I still would have gone to my grave a happy woman.

Sometimes when you are reading the opinions of others, a little bell goes off in your head or a light goes on and you think: "That person seems to have many the same reactions I do, and since they didn't like this, or did like that, maybe my reaction will be the same." It's like asking people advice about which movies to see or books to read. I don't know about you, but a lot of very nice people I know love every year's Oscar winner and line up for movies I wouldn't watch except on a plane.

But Italy is a very delightful place, especially if you plan your days -- wherever you go -- around the idea that you will see what you came to see -- but also leave yourself enough time to really look at it, and really look around on the chance you will discover something you didn't expect to see too. It's a very beautiful country with very beautiful cities. Sometimes one square foot of Italy is so beautiful, you just feel rooted to the spot. Don't imagine if you don't hop around you'll be "missing" too much. Just the opposite.

zeppole,

Can you please elaborate a bit on avoiding the American idea of the "Under the Tuscan Sun" vacation? Does this include Siena and Chianti?

Our plan is to include and stay two nights in the Umbrian area.

Would it be better to include more time in this area and not so much of the Siena area?

Thank you

Well, my answer is going to elicit howls of protests from some people who consider Tuscany the end-all-and-be-all of Italian travel, so brace yourself!

First of all, I don't think you should avoid anything except a trip to Italy you don't want to take. Some people come to Italy because they are fulfilling a lifelong ambition to learn about various different aspects of Italian culture -- its food, or its art, or its ancient history or its WW2 history, or to see how Ducati makes a motorcycle. Some are also Catholics who want to see famous religious shrines. Other people come because they've already seen most of the scenic places wherever they live, and they now want spend their vacation time having fun in a scenic place, and they can afford that.

Obviously most people want something of a mix. By and large the vacations will want to take advantage of being near St Peter's or near Michaelangelo's David to make the effort to go look at it and form an opinion. The culture vultures and the religious pilgrims will also plan some breaks of pure enjoyment. But usually -- I am tempted to say almost always -- people have a real bias one way or the other about why they are coming to Italy and what they most enjoy.

To me the "under the Tuscan sun vacation" is meant to be culturally and intellectually light, and heavy on "wandering", "soaking up" and shopping, including wine shopping. It's structured like an American vacation, the focus being staying active outdoors, not indoors, and driving. That said, most vacationers want a private view and a private car, not a bench in the piazza and a bus. They want to "base" in an area with a guarantee of sufficient variety without a whole lot of effort. The point of a vacation is to leave the stress behind, so they gravitate to the areas of Tuscany where they can find creature comforts like restaurants with plenty of meat and not too-unfamiliar Italian food, air conditioning, pools, bars with beer and other familiar American activities (golf, cycling, horseback riding) and -- of course -- English speakers. The Chianti area of Tuscany and the val d'Orcia area of Tuscany have been specifically developed to attract this kind of tourism, with varying degrees of sophistication.

You can go anywhere in Italy and turn it into an American style vacation -- and likewise, you can go anywhere in Tuscany and discover Italy. It is harder to do the latter in Chianti and the val d'Orcia, or around San Gimignano, since so many towns have no other economy than tourism (that's true of some Umbrian towns too). But if you stay on a truly functional farm in Tuscany where home food is cooked, and dig into the local history, and don't only visit the "cute" hilltowns in every guidebook but also spend time in ones you just go to on a whim, if you learn some Italian -- you get the picture. Likewise, Siena is a very serious place with a history and Renaissance just as extraordinary and art-rich as the Florentine's, so if you read up on it beforehand, you'll be having a different experience than wander-and-soak.

When I lived in America, I thought it was a shame people didn't take time to relax more, and enjoy public spaces, just go for walks or share long lunches with people they loved. I've got nothing against vacations, and if you need a vacation, Italy is a great place to do it, a delicious place to do it, and don't cheat yourself out of it thinking you should be staring at art you don't care about it and your mind is too tired to absorb.

Have a great time whatever you do in Italy.