I had a similar problem with Alitalia. They let me use my infant seat on my flight to the states, though, and not on my return flight back to Italy. It was a horrible experience. I ended up ditching my return flight w/ them and flying Delta into Venice the next day.

And I did just have a similar experience w/ Ryan Air. They don't allow infant seats on their planes, which I knew. My problem was that I booked a ticket for my 6 month old daughter so we could have the extra space and her luggage allowance. We flew from Venice Treviso to Charleroi. In Venice they seemed VERY confused, but checked us in eventually calling my infants fare an "extra seat" on her boarding pass. On the return, we were informed that you can NEVER buy an infant a seat on Ryan air. All you do is pay the taxes and have them on your lap, with no luggage allowance. I never saw that I couldn't buy her a ticket ANYWHERE on their website and they couldn't tell me where it was either. We paid for her ticket and then had to pay an extra 10E for an infant fare in Charleroi regardless of the fact that we had already paid them a lot more than that.

It wasn't a huge inconvenience except that we won't get a refund (wasn't expecting one from Ryan Air), but just thought I'd pass it along so someone out there might save themselves a little time and money and not purchase a seat for an infant!

Seems like a cultural difference to me. Americans travelling abroad very frequently expect others to have the same rules and the same values. I've seen Americans horrified at how "stupid" local people were because the locals couldn't understand the Americans screaming in English!

That being said, I would wonder why the airlines charge 30% for an infant. What is that money for? For the privilege of holding the child on your lap?

I seem to recall that infants were charged 30% because they did not weigh that much, but were entitled to a full seat. Those were the days when airlines were careful of WEIGHT. You paid for a ticket by weight, which seemed perfectly logical since the airplane had to lift off and fly with all YOUR weight. At one time long long ago (probably in a land far far away! lo!) the weight limit for passenger and luggage was 200 pounds. Anything over that and you paid extra.

Is this 30% a leftover from those old days of charging 30% for a small infant's weight? In other words, why even pay 30%? I would imagine that the 30% entitles the infant to a bassinet at least, and not just the right to sit on a parent's lap.

They don't charge 30% for this. Where did this number come from?

From Delta's web site:

International Flights
All children, regardless of age, must have a ticket. The price of the ticket varies according to whether you hold the child or purchase a seat. The fare for a lap child is approximately 10% of the adult fare. If you choose to purchase a seat, the percent discount off the standard adult fare varies by:

country of origin
destination
season
fare type

I confess I don't know where the 30% came from.

However, it doesn't matter whether it's 10% or 30%, the airlines are charging something for the infant. If they charge something, they should provide something. In this case, some space.

The parent's lap belongs to the parent. Whether the parent wants to hold a pillow, a coat, or an infant, that space belongs to the parent, and the airlines should not profit by charging for the parent's lap space!

Am I being idiotic or what?!

The economy seats are cramped as it is, even for me, at 115 pounds. To expect a parent on an 8 hour Trans-Atlantic or a 14-16 hour Trans-Pacific flight to hold a child in the lap all that time is ludicrous!

easytraveler, I do agree with you. It seems that it's been this way for a long time, though. I know when I took my now 23yr old son to the UK when he was eight months old - back when car seats were a relatively new thing and nobody had even thought about safety seats for infants on planes - it was 10% then too. I think that these days there shouldn't be the option of holding an infant on your lap. You should have to buy a seat and the airlines should provide the approved child safety seat.

I don't think you are being idiotic, but perhaps a little unreasonable or you haven't thought about this clearly. I am amazed at these airlines that won't allow you to buy a seat for an infant, if I've read that correctly. That doesn't even make sense except given these fares are less than adult fares, if their planes are very full, I guess that would be lost revenue. I thought they were about 50 pct (when it was an extra seat). That's a pretty good deal.

I have had to sit next to people who wanted to save money and fly with infants to larger babies (an 11 month old, for example) on their laps and it is not always a pleasant experience if you have to sit next to one of these people. Your space and comfort can be taken away. I don't think that should be allowed, actually. I don't think airlines should allow people to fly with children on their laps.

Anyway, as to your question -- why should it cost 10 pct when you are getting nothing. You are getting something of considerable value -- you are getting that person transported a long distance, so you are getting transportation. You are getting some service as the flight attendant may be helping with the food for that child, warming bottles, etc and other services because I've seen it -- these people do get attention. I think some of that money should be given to the people who sit next to them as it lowers the value of their tickets and flight experience.

Perhaps the 10% is for use of overhead bin space for the stroller, car seat, diaper bag, etc. and for the use of stewards to warm bottles and baby food. It might be because they have first priority for boarding and using the bulkhead seats with the bassinets. It might even have something to do with the possible lawsuit liability the airlines will incur if an accident befalls the child.

I'll admit to being unreasonable for not having thought the whole thing through. And maybe idiotic too!

But, unless we can be transported by being beamed Star Trek style, currently transportation still involves space. The parent's lap is space already paid for and the airlines should not recharge for that space. Otherwise, the airlines can charge for your lap space and mine when we are travelling without a child. Horrors, and we would have to carry someone else's child!

A lap child should travel free, guess that's where my meanderings are headed.

If there is a charge, then travellers like wbowles should expect to get some space for that charge.

I think that if the profit motive is making seats smaller and smaller and the space between seats tinier and tinier AND we are all packed in like sardines, then I believe that even the littlest sardine deserves some space, especially when the parent has paid something for it! >

Now I gotta get to work - and be irrational at work too! ><

wbowles, Thank you for the information and I am sorry for your problems on Alitalia. From your post, I am taking it that your intention was an advisory to other passengers traveling with infants that Alitalia will not allow car seats on their flights and infants cannot be sold a seat but must be held by the parent in their lap. I called Alitalia and received that same information. She said an infant was safer on their parents lap that strapped into the seat without the aid of a carseat. Well, looked at that way, yes. Why an airline would believe a car seat should not be allowed on a flight is beyond me. Why they refuse to sell a seat to an infant is also beyond me. But I do know this; I know more now than I did this morning and for that, I thank you. Please don't let a few people intent on reading more into what you are saying keep you from future postings. Warnings such as yours are supremely helpful and much appreciated. Thanks.

Barbara, the figure of 30% comes from wbowles' post of 12/04 at 4:35 PM.

thanks, Nikki. Now the whole thing makes even less sense than it did before, if that's possible.

Barbara, Why do you continue to beat wbowles' dead horse? wbowles signed off on this thing yesterday.

I do have to admit, tho, that I am still pondering Christina's suggestion that those sitting next to people with lap babies should get rebates to compensate for having their aero-experiences devalued. Logic dictates that the rebate idea would extend to anyone offended or inconvenienced by their seatmates (overweight, odorous, too chatty, IBS afflicted).

Many people have questioned the 30% figure I gave. The fare for the underage infant on Alitalia is 10% of an adult fare, this is the only option available for an infant. The 30% figure is based on the total cost of the infant ticket, with all taxes, surcharges and security fees added in, the infant bottom line total came to about 30% of the adult bottom line total. This is what you will actually pay for the 10% infant fare.
Thanks,
Wally

I have travelled before with Alitalia i like them, but this year i have to travel with my baby. We had a baby bassinet Peg Perego wich was perfect for the long flight of 9.35h from Miami to Milano. At the check in we were allowed to use it and then just before we enter the plane one little disgustin italian took it from us and had the insolence to lye us that " Oh we have better much much better bassinets for the baby inside" And also said hurry hurry the plane is leaving which was not true.
We entered and we had ordinary seats i made a scandal and i requested a seat that is supposed to be given to infants. It is true that the airhostess and the whole stuff was very very polite/they do not have fault of the whole alitalia policy/ and made the change.
I have asked for the bassinet that they have and i could not believe what i saw a flat wood with iron with no security belts and it was so small that my baby could not fit at all. I have asked for bigger one and the stuff answered sorry this is all that we have all bassinets are one size. And where i have to place my baby?-On the floor!!!! With that aircondition!!!! I denied. Then they offered us one emty seat thank god so my baby could sleep.
For the landing and take off we have to buckle our baby with an ordinary seat belt for adults !!!!
It is obvious that Alitalia do not care about babies, then why we were not allowed to use our bassinet/ our bassinet was twise secure then that one in the plane which first do not fit our baby and then there are no security belts/.
On our second flight wich was short one we were asked to held our baby in aour arms. How he is going to sleep??? In my arms. Such a pleasant flight!!!!
I think that the managment of Alitalia should think about all that , because soon or later less and less people will travel with them.
The best publicity is made by the human factor!!!!
One more thing all the stuff at the plane thought exactly like us, so alitalia also do not have relations with it's personnel-to know what people think, what are their complaints and comments.
So if you have a baby and you care about it do not travel with alitalia!!!!

I hate to jump in here but I'm still missing something.

wbowles said: "Since I did not have a guaranteed seat, my presumption would be to 1) use an available seat if available, which it was indeed on each of our four flight legs. This was not guaranteed but highly probable".

Forget the Alitalia leg. Lets say that when you checked in for your Delta flight, you got your boarding pass indicating seats 32 A&B for you and your wife. Let's also say that 3 rows away seat 29E (the dreaded middle seat) was a no-show and is vacant.

Are you saying you carried your child's seat onto the plane expecting to seat him in 29E since it was "within 10 feet" of you???

Or did you expect the lucky inhabitants of 29 D&F who by the luck of the draw happened to have an empty seat between them on an overnight flight to just up and move to your 32 A&B in an occupied 3 row run?

I'm sorry wbowles. Maybe I'm still missing something but it seems to me like you need to take some lessons in common courtesy.

Linda and Olgab., did you not notice that the previous post (wbowles) was 2 years old? The child's probably in nursery school by now, and Alitalia may have completely different policies.

OK my mistake, Olgadobreva was, in fact, reporting the same mess again this year.

I'm surprised W Bowles was allowed on the flight deck. Isn't that forbidden now? The airline has its own rules and the Captain is the boss of his aircraft and should be respected - after all your life is in his hands. If you don't like them, fly with someone else...

"Linda and Olgab., did you not notice that the previous post (wbowles) was 2 years old?"

Ops! Sorry, didn't see that.

But...hasn't it just been in the last few years that U.S. carriers started allowing child seats on planes anyway? Could be longer, I just remember that at one time they did not allow them at all.

May I point out that today is olgadobreva's first-ever posting?
She/he revived a 2 1/2 year-old thread for the purpose of complaining about Alitalia: "if you care about <your baby> do not travel with Alitalia."
Quite a statement, as I'm sure many Italian travelers would agree.