I always bought tickets for my small children when I was going back home to visit my family.Although that was quite expensive for my limited budget,I did not mind, I cared about their safety and comfort more .

I'm still confused. Did you or did you not purchase a seat for your infant? If you did not, then you are not entitled to a seat for that infant. Purchasing an infant fare does not entitle you to another seat.
If you did pay a child's fare, you are entitled to a seat for that child, and I would be plenty upset if they didn't let me use it--obviously an 11 month old can't sit in a regular seat so the car seat is the only solution. If you did indeed purchase a child's fare (seat), then I would take it up with Delta.

I've never seen car seats for children being used on flights within Europe - I'd be very surprised if any airline will allow them. However, my understanding is that this is because European car seats are designed differently in that they have to use (in a car) both the lap and chest strap, and as a result if it's used in a lap-belt only seat it isn't stable enough to be safe.

I'd complain to Delta - especially if it wasn't clear this was a code share.

A slight twist on this regarding something I saw on an Alitalia flight last month. My friend and I had side by side aisle seats. There were two women behind her with a small child - perhaps 3-4. They did not have a seat for the child, he sat on one or the other's lap. If this had been an infant, no problem - but there really was not room for the three of them in the two seats they had. This meant the child was constantly kicking and pushing against my friend's seat. (In addition to leaning forward and pulling her hair - which is a parenting issue, not an airline one) I remarked to her that an American airline would have insisted that this child have his own seat. (I think) It was a very uncomfortable flight for my friend, luckily it was less than two hours.

celticdreams; a child over 2 must have a seat; if this child did not have a seat, the airline must have broken it's own rules. It is certainly not allowed.

To clarify several questions raised:

1. Yes, we purchased a reduced fare infant ticket.

2. No, this is not a fare or seat purchase issue. They do not allow the safety seats, period, seat or no seat purchased.

3. Yes, this is their actual policy, not an isolated incident. Same thing for our two return legs, we met several others in the same situation. From their official website at http://www.alitalia.it/en/fly/travel...ts/infants.htm
"Seats for infants
It is not possible to book individual seats for infants. During take-off and landing we require small children to sit on the lap of the person accompanying them. You will be provided with a child seat belt to ensure their safety at these points during the flight."

4. Yes, this is ridiculously unsafe. We experienced significant turbulence and my wife was struck by a heavy bag falling from the overhead bin on takeoff while holding our son. The stewardesses apologized for it being unsafe but said they had no choice as this is their policy. The Captain advised me to keep my son on the ground if I was concerened about his safety. This warning, issued on the flight deck at 35,000 feet was not especially encouraging.

5. Yes, an 8.5 hour transatlantic flight with an infant on your lap is both unsafe and as miserable as you would expect. Not too fun for those around, either. Other airlines have no problem making the flight both safe and much more pleasant for all involved.

6. No, we did not book Alitalia, we booked Delta. I am not too pleased with Delta for this and would encourage all parents of small children to take great care to ensure that they are not booked on an Alitalia flight.

Regards,

Wally

If you booked Delta, I would definitely take it up with them as it is their code-share. Perhaps they are not aware of this unsafe practice--they just need someone to complain and bring it to their attention.

Message: Wally, what you went through is appalling. I do hope that you follow up with the FAA and Delta, as well as Alitalia.
For the record, if there is an empty seat on an American carrier, it is always encouraged to use it for a childseat. It would be one thing if a person assumed that despite not buying a ticket for a carseat that there would be a seat for them, but yours was clearly not this case. Alitalia has an unsafe and unacceptable policy period. Foreign carrier or not. It is a service to anyone with a baby to know about it. By the way, getting hit with a bag/object out of the overhead is a HUGE deal and I would definitely stress it in your communications.

I have two small children and have flown several times, always purchasing a seat for my child. I'm a little surprised by this, but then again - different countries, different rules.

For future travel I am glad to know this because I probably would have just made the assumption as you did. Especially having booked with an American airline would have thought the same rules would have applied throughout the travel. I'm sorry that you had to learn this lesson in such a manner, but am glad that you posted about it so that we (other parents on this board) may learn from your experience and be more dilligent about regulations with foreign companies.

What amazes me is that I am not allowed to hold my purse during take off and landing, but I am allowed to hold a infant?! Just doesn't make sense to me.

If you are going to crash, baby seat or no seat, you are not going to survive. If there is a lot of turbulence, I think I would rather hold my infant in my arms to console her/him rather having the infant in the seat crying by her/himself.

Some crashes are survivable. People do survive certain kinds of planes crashes. But not if they are flying all over the cabin instead of buckled in their seats.

If the turbulence or whatever is bad enough you won't be able to hold on. The baby is better off locked down in a seat. That is why they don't let babies ride in their mother's arms in cars anymore.

Quote: "For the record, if there is an empty seat on an American carrier, it is always encouraged to use it for a childseat."

Just FYI, this is not precisely true. It depends on where the empty seat is. Carseats must be used in a position where they will not impede egress from the aircraft in the event of an emergency. This means that that they can only be placed in the window position or in the center seat of a center row on a widebody. They also cannot be placed in a rear-facing seat, or in the row before or behind an exit row.

wbowles, it still is not clear what type of ticket you bought from Delta for your infant. Did you buy a seat or not? Because if you didn't, then why did you even take the car seat? Even Delta won't give necessarily give you a seat you haven't paid for. Their policy is pretty clear and if you weren't sure, you should have called.

http://www.delta.com/travel/trav_ser...ares/index.jsp

Alitalia's policy seems very wrong, but your specific problem begins and ends with yourself. You made a lot of assumptions without making sure of what you would be able to do.

Barbara,

In repsonse to your question on what type of ticket I bought for the infant, two things. First, that is not the issue, they do not allow the infant seats, period.
Second, from the Alitalia website reference above:
"It is not possible to book individual seats for infants. "

Nough said. The issue is not whether the passenger spends more or less, the issue is that they _do not permit_ infant safety seats, period, under any circumstances.

Wally

One last question, Wally: having NOT paid for a seat for your infant, assuming you were flying Delta, as was your intent, and assuming the Delta flight being full, where would this safety seat would be placed?

Wally, I think the reason some want to know if you purchased a seat for the baby is because:

If Delta, who DOES allow one to purchase a seat for infants and then use a child safety seat ON that purchased seat, SOLD you a seat ticket for the child, then Delta owes you a refund on the child's seat ticket purchased. Also, Delta should have advised you that if you flew their codeshare the rules were different and no seat would be provided, so there was no reason to purchase a ticket for the baby.

I understand your point that holding the infant is unsafe, but in your first post you say "we were forced to have the seat taken from us and the baby held in our arms. There were plenty of seats, three within 10 feet of us), which implies that you wished to place the carrier in an empty seat, so the question of whether you paid Delta for a seat for the child IS relevant.

To try to clarify a little, when you booked did you expect to be flying on Delta planes, or did you know at that time that you would be flying Alitalia? Did you just arrive at the gate and, lo and behold, it was an Alitalia plane?

To answer your questions:

Surlok: Since I did not have a guaranteed seat, my presumption would be to 1) use an available seat if available, which it was indeed on each of our four flight legs. This was not guaranteed but highly probable 2) Use the infant seat bulkhead bracket provided for this purpose by many airlines. Presumably this is why Alitalia seated us at the bulkhead 3 out of 4 times. These brackets, however, had been removed, leaving only the three mounting holes in the bulkhead or 3) Use the carseat on the floor without a seat area. This would be the least preferable but still safer than loose. I do have a photo of the Alitalia approved bassinet they did let us use briefly on one leg in this position, sort of a tray, no restraint. A buckled safety seat in this location, while the least desirable solution, would have provided some more safety with the hard plastic enclosure. The seat we brought was a prone infant style, as my son is 11 months.
You raise a valid point that my son was not entitled to a guaranteed seat. However, a seat is still usually available, as it was on all four denied legs. A seat was available and was used on the two Delta legs, as is the norm for travelling with an infant. Do also note, that Alitalia will not permit a seat to be booked for an infant, period. Again, it's not a money issue, it's a bizarre regulation issue. If you bought a non first class ticket and were then barred from using empty seats in a lifeboat on the Titanic, I believe you would also have some grounds for offense.

Melj: Your point is similar, but again, all other airlines I have ever flown (and they are many) do offer the resources they have available to maximize their passengers comfort and safety, Alitalia does not. If they have an empty seat and my son can use it, they are wrong to deny me the use. I am not a freeloader, I bought 4 full price tickets, plus paid a partial fare and fees on the baby amounting to about 30% of the cost of the full adult fare with the taxes and fees included and note again that the purchase of the seat was not an option "It is not possible to book individual seats for infants." Alitalia's general attitude towards their customers may also be illustrated by the fact that they made the crossing with two thirds of their first class seats empty. While I am not an Alitalia frequent flyer (and never will be) it's hard to see how they are operating in the best interests of either their company or their passengers by wasting this valuable resource rather than awarding these wasted upgrades to some of their loyal flyers.

Barbara: You have a valid point, I knew after purchase that these would be Alitalia codeshares. I admit my ignorance in never considering the possibility that the most basic, simple safety precautions that all airlines normally engage in would be banned. For example, I also failed to check whether they provided seatbelts for their adult passengers, I assumed that they were a first world, safety concious and responsible carrier. I will not make that mistake again. My goal in this post was to alert others who might also make the same assumptions, as I think most parents would.
Thanks,
Wally

Wally

If you are interested, check out a site called airlinesafety.com, you will find this issue of infant seating is quite a passionate one there. The editor outlines quite a long rationale for why he believes harnesses that secure the infant to the parent during landing and takeoff (I think one quoted example was something called 'Baby B'air') ought to be permitted.

I note that as of today's date at least, Delta's web site does seem to indicate which flights are code shares. However, the onus is left to the consumer to research whether rules for the code-sharing airline differ in any significant way. (Seems to be mainly a problem with international as opposed to domestic code shares.) Code shares can be problematic for other reasons - rules about baggage allowances, etc. can differ too. 'Buyer beware' never applies so much as in the travel industry, alas.

I've been following this thread with interest. I've been watching fares to Italy on Travlelocity etc. I wondered how the Delta flights "operated by Alitalia" would differ from a regular Delta carrier. I am a very cautious flyer and after reading all of this I would NEVER put my family on an Alitalia flight. I make my kids wear their seat belts at all times because I have seen people fly out of their seats when encountering unexpected turbulance.

Wally, I never did see your answer regarding whether or not you knew in advance that you would be on an Alitalia flight or if you thought it would be a Delta flight. We fly Delta alot and that's something I want to find out.

A friend of mine who is a flight attendant sums it up precisely. She refers to babies not strapped in a child seat as "bullets".