Jane, It's my understanding that the Alitalia flights booked through Delta are simply that-they are totally operated by Alitalia and only booked through Delta.

wbowles, you are continuing to flog a dead horse. Nobody who has posted on this thread disagrees with you that Alitalia's policy is wrong, bad, dangerous, whatever. Nobody.

You, however, still do not get it. You, the parent, did not do all you could do to keep your infant safe. You did not attempt to buy a seat exclusively for the use of your child. You just hoped that there would be unused seats that you could use. You still haven't answered Surlock's question. There aren't always seats available. The four flights I will betaking in a couple of weeks are completely full.I don't think any airline would let you put your infant in a safety seat on the floor! That would potentially endanger the other passengers.

Jayne11159, I'm sorry, I thought I did answer the question in my latest post. I did indeed have warning it would be an Alitalia code share. I was ignorant in not knowing about Alitalia child seat isssues, it never crossed my mind they could have such a policy.

Barbara, I'm sorry if you feel I'm flogging a dead horse, but it seems I need to defend my position. I thought I did answer Surlock's questions with an explanation of my plans, with my first choice and two fallback contingency plans. I believe I did act responsibly. I brought an approved, properly labelled Child Safety Seat. The chance of an empty seat was not a small, but a very high probability. Note that there were indeed available seats on all six flight segments on our round trip. Note also, it's not that I chose a cheaper option, no seat purchase on Alitalia is possible for an infant. On Delta, we used an empty seat on both segments. On Alitalia, they went unused. And, I did have two fallback positions, not ideal but much better than holding the baby.
If you find it improbable that the airline would allow a baby to be placed on the floor, let me direct you to http://www.thebowles.com/benfloor.jpg to view my son Benjamin in the tray on the floor that Alitalia did provide in one of their more generous moments. Note the size problem with folded legs (He is just 11 months old). He is also an enthusiastic walker/runner/climber when awake, the safety seat with restraint would have been far preferable to this traylike bassinet they provided.
Note you can just see the three mounting holes in the bulkhead for the infant safety seat bracket, removed.
Thanks,
Wally

Sue_xx_yy
Thank you for the link to flightsafety.com and particularly their link to the baby safety harness product at babyair.com. I was not aware of this device, which could have provided another fallback option for some additional safety in the vent the safety seat could not be used. It's a shame that the safety harness is not yet U.S. approved for takeoff and landing, and of course not usable at all on Alitalia.
Thanks,
Wally

I believe that wbowles did answer that because his son is an infant, he was not allowed to purchase any type of seat for him. However, wbowles was required to pay 30% of a full fare ticket for his infant son's passage on the flights.

No one has mentioned that since wbowles purchased his tickets directly from Delta, that Delta knowing that it routed wbowles on Alitalia, and knowing that Delta sold a 30% fare ticket to wbowles for the infant son, that Delta failed to inform wbowles that a child safety seat would not be allowed on the Alitalia flight. Delta cannot be that blind that it did not know that Alitalia does not allow child safety seats. Delta and Alitalia code-share, thus there must be a very lengthy contract between the two entities dotting every I and crossing every T.

I suggest that wbowles pursue his complaint with Delta and hope for a refund.

I do have one query though. I can understand Alitalia requiring parents to hold infants during take off and landing (I believe all airlines require this), however, wbowles mentioned that on some, but not all of the flights, the infant son was semi-restrained in Alitalia's crib/basket that is attached to the bulkhead. Why was this crib/basket not available on all legs of the flight? Doesn't the passenger manifest list quantify how many infants are on a specific flight to determine if there are enough cribs/baskets available? If there are more infants than cribs/baskets, are parties prohibited from boarding a scheduled flight?

wbowles agreed that the onus was on him to check out Alitalia's rules once he knew that he was booked on an Alitalia flight. And, it has been mentioned that Alitalia does publish rules about infants on its website. I am also wondering if Delta publishes any rules on its website regarding its code share carriers.

Leslie,
Good point on Delta's code share responsibility. On their site, under Customer Care, Delta proudly gives the Delta Customer Commitment, where, among other things, they state that "We will ensure our domestic codeshare partners commit to providing comparable consumer plans and policies" Unfortunately you are on your own for International codeshare.
US Airlines do not require infants to be held for takeoff and landing, they allow the use of FAA Aviation approved safety seats at all times. The takeoff and landing restriction in the US is for non approved holders or devices, such as harnesses.
Thanks,
Wally

It is time to put this post to rest.wbowles you made your point, but life goes on.

wbowles, it is very interesting to me that Delta makes that remark about its domestic codeshare carriers but not its international codeshare carriers. Therefore, by process of elimination, that means that Delta knows that there are conflicting rules between it and its international codeshare carriers.

It has been awhile since I paid attention to infant restraints on a domestic flight (because I don't have a preference as to where I sit on shorter flights). However, having flown British Airways and Swiss (and the former Swiss Airlines), and am usually requesting a window bulkhead at the time I reserve my seat so that I can stretch out for the long flight, I have witnessed parents holding their infants during takeoff and landing for these specific international carriers. I have seen flight attendants provide parents with a special harness that attaches to the parents' seatbelts to restrain infants and toddlers.

I really do think that Delta should have informed you of Alitalia's policy at the time of booking and given you the choice not to fly on Alitalia. Hindsight is 20/20, but I guess you will know the right questions to ask next time you book a flight.

If Delta does not provide you with satisfaction, I suggest you contact Ombudsman at Conde Nast Traveler Magazine, some type of Ralph Nader watchdog group, and even your local tv consumer reporters. Sometimes shaming a company publicly into doing the right thing will garner you a refund for the 30% infant ticket that you had to purchase. It won't relieve the frustration you experienced at the time, but at least it will be some compensation. And, for now, just be happy that you and your family have returned home safely.

I thought the remark about international codeshare was one thrown in by wbowles, not one stated by Delta. Correct me if this is wrong.

kismitchera, your last post crossed with mine, however, you are free to skip this thread if you are not interested in the topic.

However, you mentioned in your earlier post on this thread that you always purchased individual tickets for your small children, and that it was expensive.

You specifically said "Although that was quite expensive for my limited budget,I did not mind, I cared about their safety and comfort more."

wbowles point was that he was required to and did purchase a ticket at 30% the fare of an adult ticket for his infant son. wbowles never tried to skate by the monetary issue, most likely, he would have bought a reserved seat for his infant son, had he been allowed to, but, he was not allowed by Delta to purchase a seat for his infant son. wbowles was, as you were when your children were small, concerned about the safety of his son, not the cost of the ticket.

cristiana, when Delta sold the tickets to wbowles, Delta knew immediately that it was booking wbowles on its international codeshare partner, Alitalia. Since Delta codeshares with Alitalia, it would not fly a plane from the same departure point to end point at the same scheduled time. Delta knows its own schedules. However, I don't think that wbowles was immediately aware that he was going to fly Alitalia, and if he did, he did not know at the time of booking that Alitalia prohibits the use of child safety seats on its flights.

Leslie, I don't think wbowles was saying he did not have the option of purchasing a seat for his child--anyone can buy seats. I think he was saying that he would not have been permitted to use the infant carrier in a seat on Alitalia--had he booked directly with them--they don't have that option.

However, since he booked through Delta he COULD have booked a seat for his child, but chose not to in the hope that there would be an unused seat available. See the following from Delta's Web site:

"Infants
If the seat next to you remains unoccupied, you may place your infant in the seat using an FAA approved child restraint (see Approved Child Restraints below). Delta cannot, however, guarantee a seat will remain open. You must pay for the seat to assure its availability."

He clearly stated that he hoped to get an empty seat, but Alitalia wouldn't allow him to do so. It appears he did NOT pay for a seat for the child and then not receive it. He took a chance he'd get a "free" seat and it didn't work out that way.

Having said all that, I certainly will share with my friends who fly with children that Alitalia does not allow the use of infant carriers so, if the child is not old enough to sit unaided in a seat, there's no point in purchasing a seat (or flying ALitalia if that can be helped!)

Leslie,

Thanks for jumping to my defense

kismitchera is right, I beat this drum pretty heavily since it was both a great and disturbing surprise to us and I thought an important warning to others in the same circumstance. However, I'm done now and I'm ready to move on with life. I've posted some happier posts on the great little family hotel we enjoyed in Venice and our experience with the record Euro issue.
Benjamin had a good trip and arrived home safe and sound, only slightly the worse for the wear after his many enthusiastic pigeon encounters in the Piazza. http://www.thebowles.com/pigeons.jpg

Thanks to all for the good advice and comments from the community on this board, both before and after our trip.
Thanks,
Wally

Leslie

While I understand how Wally might have got confused about the policy in effect on the airline he wound up flying, and while I sympathize with his worries as a parent, I don't think Delta is liable to refund that which was not paid for in the first place. Wally admits he didn't contract for a separate seat. While the website indicates that on Delta flights unoccupied seats may be used for the seating of infants, this is not part of the contract for which money was paid (it can't be since unoccupied seats can't be guaranteed.)

I too noticed that Delta only guarantees uniformity about domestic codeshares, but I don't think that means Delta 'knew' Alitalia's rules differed: Alitalia is not Delta's only international codeshare. Some partners might have the same rules about infants, but differ in others. Generalizations might be impossible for Delta to guarantee.

In any case, as far as Delta's website is concerned, either an FAA approved device OR holding the infant on takeoff and landing is acceptable, so Alitalia isn't violating Delta's own policy.

The other difficulty here is that safety engineering is a very complex and controversial science. Innovations in engineering don't necessarily make something safer. For example, owing to my short stature, I am not altogether safer driving a car with a driver-side airbag. Complexities like this explain in part how it comes about that different panels of experts can come to different conclusions about one and the same policy. Alitalia's policy is probably based on what their experts have advised is the safest procedure, based on their knowledge at this time. Many parents might decide otherwise, and given that it's their kid, who can argue with them? But it does mean that if a parent feels they can only accept a certain policy for their infant children, they must ask lots of questions at booking time.

sue and mel, I agree with you. However, I do have a question for wbowles, because I think I am missing some of the facts.

wbowles, please clarify something for me. Forget about what has already transpired. But, at the time you made your reservation, did you intend to buy a reserved seat for your son? If not, then you were looking for trouble because the flights could have been sold out and all the infant cribs/carriers accounted for by other passengers.

I am under the impression from what has been written is that you were prohibited by Delta to purchase a reserved seat for your son, but that you were required to pay 30% of a full fare ticket.

wbowles, Why don't you get on with contacting Delta about your problem instead of beating it to death here?

Leslie, wbowles doesn't say anywhere that he tried to buy a seat for his child. He never tells us how much/what % he paid. Nowhere does he mention 30%. What he does say is

Author: wbowles
Date: 12/03/2003, 06:17 pm
Message: To clarify several questions raised:

1. Yes, we purchased a reduced fare infant ticket.

The infant ticket does not buy a seat. It's for carrying your baby on your lap. As he didn't try to buy a seat for his infant, Delta reservations didn't know he wanted one, would not have expected him to bring a safety seat on board, and would not have known to alert him to Alitalia's strange policy.

Barbara-you have nailed the whole problem on the head and hopefully others now understand it. To wbowles:I don't know how often you fly overseas but if you think "that there are always going to be open seats" then you need to rethink that.Please do not ever assume that there will be an open seat for your child as most of the times on my flights there is not! Also,the little bassinets on overseas flights are not made to hold older children(such as an 11 month old-most children that age are too long and weigh more than what they are intended for)) so I would definitely advise that you buy a seat for your child.

Thank-you for the warning. That is certainly outdated policy. I have also heard that many European airlines will oppose the use of a FAA certified CRD (child restraint device) in flights originating in Europe... even if the seat was okay to fly FROM the US it may not be ok on the return, while an EU approved seat would then be okay. How stupid is that?! We're supposed to have two, one for the way there and one for the way back? Airlines really must get together and create new policies!!!

Turbulence can kill a lap baby, not to mention endanger those sitting nearby when the baby becomes a missile. All children, regardless of age, should be *required* to have their own seat, and airlines should *provide* proper restraints for them! Let the airlines battle it out with price wars for child fares. All the better for me!

We are flying to Europe from Malaysia on Malaysia Airline later this month with our one year old. They have so little experience with CRDs for infants that it has been a bit of a nightmare trying to arrange! It should be okay now, providing the attendants aren't as confused as the travel agent has been (nobody here uses car seats for babies in CARS, much less airplanes). What is weird in MAS policy is that you can book a child fare seat for an infant under 2 years and bring a certified CRD, but not if the baby is under six months old. Why the hell not?! How ridiculous is this? Then they give you one of those useless seatbelts to attach baby to a parent's seatbelt, which could mean crushing the baby to the death with one's own body.

It is unbelievable that these policies and practices continue.

It is unfortunate that you were not made aware in advance - however, I do think you *would have been* forwarned had Delta known you intended to use a CRD for your infant son. So I don't think Delta is at fault, in the end.

When we booked our baby's seat on Malaysia airlines (and yes, paid child fare rather than infant fare) we got a fax with the complete details on MAS's policies regarding this matter. Now that I now what CAN happen I will be sure to receive similar info when we next fly with a different carrier. Thanks for the heads up.

Jen

PS: You should definitely raise a stink about the overhead bin issue, and about the airline's CRD issue. However, I would not expect, in the case of the baby, any kind of restitution.

From Alitalia's website

Seats for infants
It is not possible to book individual seats for infants. During take-off and landing we require small children to sit on the lap of the person accompanying them. You will be provided with a child seat belt to ensure their safety at these points during the flight.