studenttobe

Assistance w/bases, order, & # of nights in each-13 nites in Andalucia (1st time), Nov 20-Dec 2


Hello all: Following some excellent advice in response to an open-ended question I earlier posed in this forum on where to base for a winter trip, I’m in the process of planning a 13 nite (1st time) trip to Andalucia with DH. The trip is to celebrate both a landmark birthday & anniversary. We’d originally envisioned the trip to span Christmas and New Years. But we’ve moved it up by a month because we’re using airline miles and the best options necessitated an earlier trip. So, the flight is booked. We fly into Malaga (that was the best option from our part of the USA—we we only wanted to change planes once) and we depart from Madrid. The plan is to spend 13 nights exploring Andalucia and then spend the final two nights in Madrid (we have been and loved). As folks here well know, the devil in the details of planning this type of trip is in selecting bases, their order, and the number of nights in each base. It’s like putting the border of a jigsaw puzzle together. I’ve been studying TRs (so many great ones on Andalucia) and many threads devoted to planning trips to this region. However, I’m having analysis paralysis. I’d be so grateful for reactions/suggestions to the bases I’m considering, their order, and number of nights.


Some background that might help shape the advice I’m seeking. We are a middle-aged couple. We’ve been to several parts of Spain (namely, the Basque region, Madrid, Barcelona, the Costa Brava). Loved all of them. We’ve traveled a good bit in Europe, especially Southern Europe and most especially Italy. Re the latter: some trips have involved long stays related to work and language study. When traveling we love to be in beautiful places (large and smaller cities, and and towns that are beautiful and have a sense of authentic life about them, such as Italian hill towns). We don’t like the beach or places developed around beach tourism (e.g., where there are lots of high rises, groups of rowdy foreign tourists on short package tours—no offense intended to anyone here—it’s just not our thing). We LOVE food (eating, cooking, visiting food markets, and even grocery stores). We also love spending days walking aimlessly in cities/towns/parks in Europe—and indeed, usually meander for about 10-12 miles a day when traveling. We do a lot of café sitting and people watching. When in new places, we do visit the traditional “must see” sites (me, more intensively than DH, who generally peels off in the afternoon to read in the most beautiful café he can find in an atmospheric square). In general, we tend to do less sight-seeing than many (at least when compared to others whom we know)—for us, it’s more about the atmosphere, the sense of a place’s uniqueness, the chance to talk with people, and OK to eat. (We’re more eaters than drinkers.) In practice, this means something like 1-2 magnificent churches, castles, fortresses, museums, mosaics, or ruins per day. We also love modern art and live performances (theater, dance, concerts). We tend to be slow (hub and spoke) travelers and have only done a few multi-base trips (though the ones we’ve done have been great.). Fully acknowledging the contradiction in my statement: we prefer places that are not overrun with foreign tourists (like us &#128522. Last piece of context: we will likely not rent a car in Spain. Instead, we will use some combination of public transport, taxis, are open to hiring a driver to do transfers between bases (if that turns out to make logistics easier in some cases), and are open to hiring a driver for a one day driving/stopping tour of some smaller towns/white villages. But if a driver is not an option for any reason (we’ve hired some fin Sicily and I recently did in Puglia during a solo trip), we will rent a car for a few days.



Bases:

After a lot of reading, we are most interested in basing in Seville (for the longest part of our stay), Cordoba, and Granada. I am confused about whether we should look at a fourth base in Andalucia.



I was considering Malaga as a 4th base—not least because that is where we are flying into (which makes logistics easy). And several folks here have recommended it enthusiastically. The Picasso museum interests me, the historic center looks lovely, as do several of the key must see sights. BUT given that we can’t do it all in one trip, I think Malaga may not be a great fit for us on this trip. Also, the three definite bases in Andalucia (Seville, Cordoba, and Granada) are cities and we’ll finish the trip in Madrid, and so I was thinking that somewhere more low key (where we can amble aimlessly through a beautiful town, enjoy café culture, or walk along a beautiful port walkway) would be a nice option for a 4th base (if we have one) in Andalucia.



Speaking of a possible 4th base, the Costa de la Luz side calls to me more than the Costa del Sol side. Jerez de la Frontera or Vejer de la Frontera both seem intriguing and beautiful. I’ve read about them in various TRs. (Just for reference: horses, sherry, and flamenco are not special passions, but we are excited to experience one flamenco show on this trip, and if a horse show is available during our stay, we would certainly be interested in attending.) I see that the population sizes of these two places are radically different (around 213,000 for Jerez de la Frontera versus around 13,000 for Vejer de la Frontera). Not sure if either would be a good 4th base for us, especially at the time of year we are visiting. Cadiz city also looks interesting and beautiful, but I was thinking that maybe it would feel too beachy for us and less “town-y”, and so either of these other two options might be a better fit. OR, is there some other marvelous option that some here might suggest?



Another way to go is to stay with three bases (Seville, Granada, Cordoba--in that order) and do a long day trip or two from Seville (perhaps one day in Malaga by public transport, or we’d hire a driver or a rental car for one long day of visiting some smaller towns in the interior or in the Costa de la Luz area).



With all of this in mind, I’d be so grateful for any reflections or suggestions. I’m thinking of something along the following lines.



Fly into Malaga airport. That’s a fixed point for us. We arrive early in the morning. Arrange for a driver or a taxi to take us from the airport directly to our lodging in Granada. (We’ll be tired, and so we definitely wouldn’t rent a car then. We’d rather be dropped off directly at our lodging and not have to deal with public transport after our flight.) Stay in Granada for three nights.



Then to Cordoba. Stay 3 nights.



Then to Seville. Stay 5 or 6 nights. (Note: I think we could also be happy staying in Seville for the full 7 nights and doing some day trips from there, as noted above.)



Then to Jerez de la Frontera or Vejer de la Frontera. (Or Cadiz, or some other lovely quiet-ish place?) Stay 1-2 nights.



Transfer to Madrid-that’s definite. We would then take the train from our last base (Seville or a post in the Costa de la Luz) to Madrid. Stay in Madrid for our final two nights. Flying to Madrid is also an option, but we’d rather take the train. (I assume the train options might be better from Seville.)



An alternative way of laying out this same trip out is to have a driver take us from the Malaga airport to our lodging in Jerez de la Frontera (or Vejer de la Frontera) or some other similar quiet-ish place. It would be a long ride (roughly 2.5 hours), but it’s an option. We’d get there in time for lunch and check in time for our lodging. One advantage of this approach (though I’m not pushing it) is that we’d have our first 1-2 nights in a low-key setting where we might amble more, before moving onto more intensive locations where even I would have a list of must see places (e.g, the Alhambra). (And realize I need to look into Alhambra tickets very soon.) Then after 1-2 nights in either of these lower key locations, we would continue onto Seville (5-6 nights), then either go to Granada or Cordoba (3 nights each, not sure which would offer better connections for getting to Madrid, so not certain of the best order under this alternative scenario).



It appears that we’ll catch the Christmas lights in Madrid and Seville, which I’m happy about even though the trip is earlier than we’d originally envisioned. Hopefully the food stores in Madrid will already be loaded with holiday treats by Dec 3 when we’ll arrive. (I’ve saved the marvelous thread on Christmas time in Madrid. Definitely a plan to be followed to the letter in a future Christmas.)



Thanks for reading this far. I welcome any suggestions, reflections, or criticisms of my thinking. And thanks in advance for any thoughts. I’ve learned so much from so many here.

annhig

Having arrived early in Malaga my immediate option would be to stay there for 3 nights to recover and see the things that you are interested in there. It's just so much more an efficient use of your time than immediately heading off elsewhere, IMO.

Then Granada for 3 nights, a stop over in Cordoba, ? 1/2 nights, 3 nights in Seville, and 2/3 in Madrid.

It's worth remembering that the days will be quite short that time of year, and the weather may be wet and cold so you may not get as much done as you might imagine. Places with lots of restaurants and cafes, plus museums and indoor activities are the way to go.

Maribel

Congratulations on your landmark birthday/anniversary!
13 nights is a good chunk of time to see the highlights of Andalucía.

Some random thoughts-

• "We don’t like the beach or places developed around beach tourism"---- means to me eliminating the overdeveloped Costa del Sol west and east of Málaga.
• "We LOVE food...We do a lot of café sitting and people watching"----means to me small cities that you can savor just by "being there", soaking in their unique atmosphere.
• "We are most interested in basing in Seville (for the longest part of our stay), Cordoba, and Granada"---- means to me directly to Granada for 3, Córdoba for 3, Seville for 5 (or Seville, 5 then Córdoba, 3). That leaves you 2 nights for a potential 4th base.
• "Speaking of a possible 4th base, the Costa de la Luz side calls to me more"--and it does to me too!!! but....to explore Vejer, Bolonia, Zahara de los Atunes, one absolutely needs a car and the Costa de la Luz will be very, very quiet in November, as it is when ekscrunchy and I visit in March. Our favorite restaurant, El Campero in Barbate, closes in Nov., as does Las Rejas on Bolonia beach, the beach cafés (chiringuitos) won't be open, some Vejer dining spots even close except on wkds. Ditto to some shops.
• As a 4th base, you could add lively Jerez. It's doable from Sevilla by MD train.
• "I think we could also be happy staying in Seville for the full 7 nights and doing some day trips from there"----so could I!. Jerez, Cádiz are feasible day trips, but not as rewarding for just 1 day. They´re small cities meant to be savored and explored leisurely. Málaga is too long a day trip. Carmona (by bus) is sort of a miniature Seville. The latter would be my choice as easier.
• "I assume the train options might be better from Seville"------yes, 3 hours to Madrid on the high speed AVE/AVLO/OUIGO/IRYO, whereas much slower on the ALVIA from Cádiz or Jerez (I've done this several times, last time in March)
• ¨We would then take the train from our last base (Seville or a post in the Costa de la Luz)"---can't train back to Madrid from Costa de la Luz (Vejer) but yes, on the Cádiz/Jerez Alvia.
• "..have a driver take us from the Malaga airport to our lodging in Jerez de la Frontera (or Vejer de la Frontera) or some other similar quiet-ish place".-----Just a bit too far, for me at least, from AGP after a long day of air travel and expensive, although I understand fully the wish for a low key setting, And again, you would need a car-driver for Vejer & environs, but not for Jerez. Vejer means a 2.5 hr. bus ride to Seville--no train. Perhaps move from AGP to Antequera to get acclimated (under an hour), which serves as a fast train transportation hub for your other cities.
• "to Granada or Cordoba...not sure which would offer better connections for getting to Madrid"-----Córdoba by fast train, just over 2 hrs. Granada by direct fast train, 3.45 hrs.
• "Hopefully the food stores in Madrid will already be loaded with holiday treats by Dec 3"-----yes, they will!! and the lights should be illuminated on Nov. 23 or 24.

Hope this helps!

Maribel

I was writing as annhig was posting her thoughts. My initial reaction was hers as well. Just stay the first two nights in Málaga to get acclimated. Málaga is a wonderful city where in winter I recently spent 6 nights with only 1 day trip, just to soak up the atmosphere. Lots of cafés for people watching and very walkable pedestrian streets in which to aimlessly wander, plus a lively, very interesting Atarazanas market. It also boasts 320 days of sun.

studenttobe

Annhig, Thanks very much for your thoughtful and practical reply. (I am still in your debt for your generous advice two years ago when I asked for advice on a base for a last minute sabbatical stay in Italy--last minute bec the appearance of Covid vaccines made the impossible trip possible. I have benefited greatly as well from your responses to others in connection with add'l trips to Italy since then. ) Now that I have been hanging out for a few weeks in the Spain forum, I see that you are equally generous and knowledgable about Spain. Your point about Malaga is an excellent one-thanks. I will give it more serious thought for sure. And your point about cities in winter (even early winter is a good one). Indeed, it was a key reason (in add'n to the fact that I love cities, large and small) for a city-based trip to a region I've long hoped to visit The hours of daylight and the average temps/rainfall seem pretty appealing (though appreciate that Cordoba would be colder and wetter), at least compared to likely conditions in my two favorite cities (Paris and Rome, and where I live in the US) at this time of year. But still it's an important factor in terms of spending time in Andalucia.

If you don't mind, I have two additional questions, prompted both by your response to me and to some other responses you've made to others in various threads. Seville, I infer is less of a favorite base for a long stay (ie. beyond 3-4 nights) for you than for several others here. I am interested to know if that is because of the crowds, about which I have read. (I know you are a great lover of Venice. I am, too. Unlike others I know, I have not "gone off" it bec of the clogged streets of selfie stickers. I suspect that, like you, I am careful about sestieri and when I try to cross the key tourist sight areas. But should I infer from your suggestion about number of nights that this plays out differently in Seville bec it is smaller, it's not Venice (no place is in terms of its charms), and/or it has a smaller number/smaller geographic spread of amazing places that one would want to visit or revisit.

Also, you suggest 1-2 nights in Cordoba. Is that also bec you find it beautiful, but perhaps less engaging than other city bases beyond 2 nights? Or, is that the way you worked out the arithmetic (and thanks for doing that) with the addition of Malaga for 3 nights? Thanks again for your characteristically thoughtful replies.

studenttobe

Maribel, Many thanks for your thoughtful and detailed responses. I'm really grateful for all that you shared in both of your responses (including even information on travel times, logistics, cars, the sense of life in the Costa de la Luz area at the time of year of my trip, suggestions about bases etc). You've given me so much to think about. I am only rushing for the moment to thank you quickly because I've got a gaggle of houseguests (who have just woken up) to which I must attend now for the next few hours. Your extremely informative replies have given me much to think about. If you don't mind, I will write later today (when I have a gap in hosting duties) with some follow up questions. (I have learned so much already not just from your responses to me, but from your responses to so many others in this forum. And your guides, which I learned about here just a few weeks ago are an incredible resources.) Thank you for now!

annhig

Thanks for your kind words, Studenttobe - it's lovely to learn that something you've said has been helpful to someone. But I must give full disclosure here - I've not yet made it to Cordoba myself. However based on what I've read from others and the time of year [IMHO] making day trips more tricky, It seems to me that spending at least a night there makes sense. I have been to Granada, Seville [as well as Madrid] and based on the time you have they seemed like reasonable splits. Of course you could spend longer in one particular place but that then takes time from somewhere else. You could certainly lengthen your stay in Seville, but then you'd have to shorten your time somewhere else and as you may have realised, my preference is always for staying at least 2 nights in a place because I think that you get substantially more out of that than you do out of one night. But that is perhaps more personal preference than a definite recommendation for a specific city or town. In the end you know your travel style and what you want to see in each place better than I do!

studenttobe

Hello Maribel, I've now had some quiet time in which to read carefully your two replies to me. I see I already need to think about a follow up trip at some point as there is so much to experience, though my work schedule shapes when I can travel (and I'm not at all good in heat....but I will keep in mind the idea of perhaps the end of March/beginning of April for a future trip as that is another travel window for me). Thanks again--all you've said is so valuable and have given me much to think about. (Based on what I’ve read in this forum about Valencia I see that I must go there in the future!)

One sensible option as per your and Annhig: arrive Malaga (stay two nights), then Granada (three nights), then Seville (5 nights, with the possibility of a day trip by bus to Carmona), and finally Cordoba (3 nights). Fast train to Madrid. (Or, reverse the order of Cordoba and Seville--the fast train time information is very helpful. I take it there is no reason why Cordoba after Seville is a better option than reversing their order since the direct fast train to time to Madrid only differs by one hour)? Final two nights in Madrid.

Other ideas/questions stimulated by your reflections:
---From the Malaga airport go direct to Antequera (stay there for two nights--either transferring there by train or by a driver). Had not considered that option-have been reading and looking at photos in the last few hours re Antequera--seems lovely and quite interesting. From there, continue as above (using trains) to Granada (3 nights), Seville (5 nights with the same possibility of a day trip by bus to Carmona), and then Cordoba 3 nights (or, reverse the order of Cordoba and Seville). If you (or others here) don't mind: I'd welcome any opinions about whether Malaga OR Antequera seem like a better fit for us as our first (two night) base, given what I've described of travel style/passions. I continue to worry a bit about the feel of Malaga for us (despite its many fascinating aspects), but I am no doubt thinking too much (about the high rises) as is my wont. I realize that you and many others here have made a strong case for the city and I respect that.


-- I appreciate the context on the Costa de la Luz (in terms of liveliness this time of year, transport to Madrid, and need for a car). Cadiz city (omitting the accent mark bec of software issues, and I'm not sure if I am referring to it in the right way, but I want to distinguish it from the province itself) or Jerez de la Frontera sound like they may be quite appealing. I'd welcome any further opinions as to whether you think either of these two cities would be a good fourth base (2 nights) at this time of year. And, if so, which one. Under this scenario it would mean Malaga airport direct to Granada (3 nights), then Seville (5 nights), then Cordoba (3 nights) (or reversing the order of Cordoba and Seville), and finally either Cadiz city or Jerez de la Frontera (2 nights). Then a long train ride to Madrid. I wonder (if I am not overstepping w/the question) if you and others could share an opinion as to whether Cadiz city or Jerez de la Frontera are just not sensible bases for this trip, given the time of year, trip length, our preference for public transport, and the sense I've given of our interests. I'm not one who has to "do it all" on a single trip, but nonetheless wonder whether a taste of a Costa de la Luz city would give me an add’l and different vantage point on the region. Or is it better saved for another trip when I could stay in that area longer?

--One other question: I am wondering (opinions welcome) if under all of the scenarios above I should steal a night from Seville (meaning 4 rather than 5 nights there) and add one to Madrid at the end of our trip (meaning 3 nights there rather than 2). It’s been 10 years since I’ve been to Madrid and it sounds like it’s become even more wonderful. However, Madrid is far easier for me to get to than Andalucia, which has been on my radar for years. This is because I’m in Frankfurt or Munich for work a few times a year, and I therefore have the option of tagging on a few nights in Madrid after a work trip, whereas it’s harder to do that in Andalucia. I’ve long used these precious add on trips days to spend time in Italy.)

Thanks in advance for any opinions. I know I’m asking more than I should in the way of advice.

studenttobe

Thanks so much, Annhig. All that you've said, as always, is so helpful. I fully agree that a base needs to be at least 2 nights (ideally at least 3) to allow one to get at least some sense of a place (and even whether it is somewhere to which you want to return for a longer stay). My favorite trips are one base stays of at least 10 days, usually after I fall in love with a place (or if its geography and transport network lends itself to hub and spoke travel). It's interesting that some regions just require these multiple bases at least for a first or second trip until you find the exact location that feels like you wished you could just live there. Thanks again for your thoughts!

progol

Just a few thoughts as you’ve got so much wonderful info here - I would keep it simple and stay in Malaga for the first 2 nights. It’s actually a very pleasant town to stay and a lot to see; I can’t say we did Antequera justice in a quick visit on a hot May day some years ago, but between the 2, I’d prefer to stay in Malaga. Much, much more to see and still a relaxing place.

We spent 4 nights in Seville on that trip and I would’ve loved to have had another night. It’s always hard allocating nights, but we fell madly in love with that city.

I really like the Malaga/Granada/Seville/Cordoba mix. If you wanted to add an extra day to Madrid, you could take it from Seville, but that would kill me! I might consider sacrificing a night from Cordoba, but it’s so tough.

I’m glad you made the decision to go to Andalucia- you will be very happy, I’m sure.

studenttobe

Many thanks for all that you said, Progol. It means a great deal and it's extremely helpful. (I'm still grateful to you, as to so many others here, for excellent, open-hearted advice on several trips to Italy in recent years (in add'n to info in excellent TRs). Thanks to you and others here for your thoughtful counsel.

Maribel

studenttobe,
I actually do agree with progol and annhig regarding the first two nights in Málaga.
I didn't mention it at the outset because I thought that for some reason it didn't appeal to you, so suggested Antequera for your "soft entry". But in retrospect, Antequera for me would be a one night stay at the Parador.

In reality, Málaga offers far more for 2 nights.
As progol says, there is much more to see (small museums galore, a Roman theater, the Alcazaba atop the city, the city center is completely pedestrianized, a beautiful beachside palm tree lined promenade, tons of cafés for sitting and watching the world go by and that wonderful indoor market. Those ugly high-rises are found to the west of the city in the far too overdeveloped Torremolinos-Fuengirola-Benalmádena axis (where I has to spend 2 summers working and hated it).

I suggested Seville first, then Córdoba only because the fast train will get you to Madrid an hour earlier so that you can have an extra hour of Madrid sightseeing, if needed, but it really doesn't matter that much.

The Málaga airport to Granada scenario, omitting the 2 nights in Málaga and putting those at the end in Jerez or Cádiz, would mean that you would need to start your Granada sightseeing on day 2, without that "down time".

In all honesty, the Cádiz province, especially the Costa de la Luz, is best left until after Easter, when things begin to come alive OR before things "shut down" in early October. May and September are wonderful, as it's festival time in Jerez. (The only reason I often go in March is to attend the International Flamenco Festival).
These 2 cities are somewhat of an outlier in one's first visit to Andalucía. On a first time journey, the usual suspects are Sevilla, Córdoba, Granada, Málaga for most folks, as they're easier by fast train and closer together.
A "taste of a Costa Luz city" is best done in spring or early fall, when you will then get a better taste.

It would kill me to steal a night from Seville, my favorite Andalusian city. I think you´ll fall in love with it. If you need to sacrifice a night, I´d steal it from Córdoba and just take a later, afternoon train to Madrid on your final day, since it´s a short trail ride.

Just a few more thoughts.

Maribel

studenttobe,
If you enjoy café culture, you´ll enjoy Málaga's dozen (yes, 12) ways to order your coffee! This is also the "Year of Picasso", and the Picasso Museum there is excellent. You can also visit his birthplace, the Casa Natal. The city also has a small but very interesting Museum of Popular Arts, giving you a window on the history of Andalusian life. And its Museo de Málaga has a wonderful Roman antiquities, a beautifully presented and well organized archaeological wing with stunning mosaic floors.
I find it fascinating.

studenttobe

Maribel, A billion thanks for all of the information and perspective that you shared. Every word is so informative and thoughtful. I will save the information on the Costa de la Luz for a future trip. You—and others here—have completely set my mind at ease. I appreciate very much the add’l info that you and others have provided re Malaga and the reasons why it should appeal to us. (And thanks for clarifying on the high rise issue-that helps a lot!) I needed to be convinced it was right for us (beyond what I could garner from excellent TRs). I am now convinced. Incredible what you’ve said about the coffee alone, the year of Picasso (I had no idea), and the beachside promenade and pedestrianized center (which should suit very well our flaneur-like tendencies) It does seem a perfect spot for a soft introduction after a transatlantic flight. And thanks as well for the response on the order of Seville and Cordoba, the great point re Granada, and for sharing your feelings (as others have to) about their love for Seville.

I’ve taken copious notes on lodging choices in many TRs—will start checking out those options in more depth, a matter that seems less confounding than the bases/order/distribution. (But I may come back on lodging once I dig in And I will look in any case to book Alhambra tickets tomorrow for day 2 in Granada since now I know when I’ll be there. I have bookmarked several threads about ticketing, which I will review. Many thanks, all! I’ll sleep well tonight now that the “big vision” of laying out the trip feels settled.

Maribel

Yes, Málaga is tailor made for a flaneur. I like that! Now, have fun finessing the details!

studenttobe

Will do!

Maribel

A great place for coffee and churros in Málaga---Casa Aranda, a classic since 1932
Casa Aranda Malaga cafe churros and chocolate

studenttobe

Wonderful—many thanks for the suggestion, Maribel. Will surely try it!