Animal cruelty in Italy - why do people ride those horse carriages???!
Aug 7th, 2009, 03:22 PM
#21
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<i>Eating chicken (or any animal) that had been raised under proper conditions and treated well is okay.</i>
Let the rationalization continue. Put this into plain English:
It is okay to breed, raise, and slaughter an animal for our consumption, as long as it is treated "well".
Of course, we define "well". We also ignore the moral implications of creating a life simply to kill it.
But that is okay, as long as we have some arbitrary measure of humanity to latch onto. We can feel self-righteous about the free-range chicken (vs the commercially raised chicken) without actually thinking through the sticky moral question of whether either chicken would have existed, except to serve our needs.
For most, except the truly committed, the only truthful answer is that they will justify pretty much anything for what they want or need. Alas, that is where we are left with when it comes to questions of animal cruelty. There is a huge reservoir of folks ready to scream solidarity, even though their solidarity is simply born from the fact that it matched their unchallenged, simpleton view of things from the beginning.
Let the rationalization continue. Put this into plain English:
It is okay to breed, raise, and slaughter an animal for our consumption, as long as it is treated "well".
Of course, we define "well". We also ignore the moral implications of creating a life simply to kill it.
But that is okay, as long as we have some arbitrary measure of humanity to latch onto. We can feel self-righteous about the free-range chicken (vs the commercially raised chicken) without actually thinking through the sticky moral question of whether either chicken would have existed, except to serve our needs.
For most, except the truly committed, the only truthful answer is that they will justify pretty much anything for what they want or need. Alas, that is where we are left with when it comes to questions of animal cruelty. There is a huge reservoir of folks ready to scream solidarity, even though their solidarity is simply born from the fact that it matched their unchallenged, simpleton view of things from the beginning.
Aug 8th, 2009, 12:14 AM
#22
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I completely disagree with you. I think you are trying really hard to rationalize this by saying that just because the chicken is allowed to be slautered for food it is okay to enslave the horse, make it "work" under conditions that endager its physical and emotional health for no good reason. I don't believe that the same should apply to chickens and that certain rules/restrictions should apply to particular animals. If they decided to ban slautering of animals for food, personally i'd be fine with it and back it. However I know there are people that wouldn't (like my husband who eats meat but was appalled by the conditions of the horses); he sees eating meat as more of a necessary and while would never support the cruelty of their life conditions, probably would think it were okay to consume. I just think you are trying to say that just because the chicken is not afforded a certain type of protection, neither should the horse? That makes no sense. Try applying that logic to life, to the world and you will see it is a very dangerous way of looking at things...
Aug 8th, 2009, 01:12 AM
#23
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Travelgourmet's view is "don't try to fix anything because you can't fix everything." And if you do try to improve the fate of even one animal without becoming a vegan, then you're a hypocrite and anything you say should be dismissed with contempt. Travelgourmet's vies are among the most callous, self-serving, and arrogant I've ever encountered on Fodors (which is saying a lot).
Tradition alone is never a good reason to keep up a practice. If we followed "tradition", then horses would still be forced into bearing reins. (child labor, slavery and female circumcision would be legal too, they all have strong roots in cultural traditions.)
There very well may be carriage drivers who don't take good care of their horses, despite economic reasons to do so. The proof that many people don't always make sound economic decisions is all over the news!
I'm not against carriage rides per se. Many places have strict controls (temp, humidity, access to shade, water etc) under which horses can work. But if you believe the horse truly was working under inhumane conditions, then by all means speak out. And put Travelgourmet's opinion in the trash can where it belongs.
Tradition alone is never a good reason to keep up a practice. If we followed "tradition", then horses would still be forced into bearing reins. (child labor, slavery and female circumcision would be legal too, they all have strong roots in cultural traditions.)
There very well may be carriage drivers who don't take good care of their horses, despite economic reasons to do so. The proof that many people don't always make sound economic decisions is all over the news!
I'm not against carriage rides per se. Many places have strict controls (temp, humidity, access to shade, water etc) under which horses can work. But if you believe the horse truly was working under inhumane conditions, then by all means speak out. And put Travelgourmet's opinion in the trash can where it belongs.
Aug 8th, 2009, 05:50 AM
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</i>I just think you are trying to say that just because the chicken is not afforded a certain type of protection, neither should the horse?</i>
This is exactly right. I see no reason why the horse should have more protection than the chicken. Why do you think the horse is more deserving of protection than the chicken?
<i>Try applying that logic to life, to the world and you will see it is a very dangerous way of looking at things...</i>
I don't think it dangerous at all. You want to paint me as some sort of monster because I simply view a chicken and a horse as deserving the same respect. Frankly, I find making exceptions, as you are seeking to do with horses, far more problematic. When I draw the line, I draw the line.
<i>Travelgourmet's vies are among the most callous, self-serving, and arrogant I've ever encountered on Fodors (which is saying a lot).</i>
My views sure do come across as callous on this issue. But I stand by it. Self-serving, though? Arrogant? Absolutely not. Self-serving is pretending that eating meat is a "necessity", while painting yourself a hero because you oppose having a horse pull a carriage. Arrogance is pretending that your view of life is the "right" one and should be adopted globally, as you seek to do.
This thread perfectly illustrates the double-standard employed by most animal-rights activists. Chickens, for example, don't deserve respect but the horse does? I admire the beauty of a fine race horse. They are, frankly, far more beautiful than a chicken. But why should that afford them greater protection? It is a Disney fiction, not something based upon real consideration of the ethics.
This is exactly right. I see no reason why the horse should have more protection than the chicken. Why do you think the horse is more deserving of protection than the chicken?
<i>Try applying that logic to life, to the world and you will see it is a very dangerous way of looking at things...</i>
I don't think it dangerous at all. You want to paint me as some sort of monster because I simply view a chicken and a horse as deserving the same respect. Frankly, I find making exceptions, as you are seeking to do with horses, far more problematic. When I draw the line, I draw the line.
<i>Travelgourmet's vies are among the most callous, self-serving, and arrogant I've ever encountered on Fodors (which is saying a lot).</i>
My views sure do come across as callous on this issue. But I stand by it. Self-serving, though? Arrogant? Absolutely not. Self-serving is pretending that eating meat is a "necessity", while painting yourself a hero because you oppose having a horse pull a carriage. Arrogance is pretending that your view of life is the "right" one and should be adopted globally, as you seek to do.
This thread perfectly illustrates the double-standard employed by most animal-rights activists. Chickens, for example, don't deserve respect but the horse does? I admire the beauty of a fine race horse. They are, frankly, far more beautiful than a chicken. But why should that afford them greater protection? It is a Disney fiction, not something based upon real consideration of the ethics.
Aug 8th, 2009, 06:35 AM
#25
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You should also blame the tourists, they think that strolling around Villa Borghese,Pincio or other famous sights in a horse- drawn carriage is so romantic..
If people quit riding these carriages then perhaps this practice will stop..
I DONT THINK that is romantic at all and feel very sorry for these poor beautiful animals.
If people quit riding these carriages then perhaps this practice will stop..
I DONT THINK that is romantic at all and feel very sorry for these poor beautiful animals.
Aug 8th, 2009, 09:13 AM
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I also agree and we never took a carriage ride and I never will.
Also, some Italians have the habit of dumping their dogs along the roadway when they take off for their annual vacation and get a different dog when they return and dump that dog when taking the next year's vacation. That is horrible too. And many of my friends in Italy agree.
Also, some Italians have the habit of dumping their dogs along the roadway when they take off for their annual vacation and get a different dog when they return and dump that dog when taking the next year's vacation. That is horrible too. And many of my friends in Italy agree.
Aug 8th, 2009, 10:40 AM
#29
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Agree that no horses should have to live this way. there are still horse carriages in NYC, which I completely disagree with. but there are now very stringent laws - including that the horses must be returned to their barns if the temp reaches 90 - so at least they don;t have heat stroke.
As for horses being "beasts" of burden - yes, they used to be. And we used to have bear baiting and cock fighting too. Thankfully all of these things have been made illegal - and at least here in the US well-known public figures have done significant jail time for taking part in dog fighting and mistreating the animals. This should be the law everywhere.
(And you're not allowed to make 5 year olds work anymore - or beat your wife - either.)
As for horses being "beasts" of burden - yes, they used to be. And we used to have bear baiting and cock fighting too. Thankfully all of these things have been made illegal - and at least here in the US well-known public figures have done significant jail time for taking part in dog fighting and mistreating the animals. This should be the law everywhere.
(And you're not allowed to make 5 year olds work anymore - or beat your wife - either.)
Jun 7th, 2017, 10:45 PM
#31
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Why don't we talk about rickshaws and pedicabs for awhile. Is there a big difference between the horse and the human pedicab driver? We use them both to move us from place to place with little regard to the "morals" of doing so.
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