A Male Dominated Society?
Sep 9th, 2004, 03:56 PM
#61
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Joie, what I have read is that women in Italy (and elsewhere) learn to cultivate a "closed" demeanor that differs somewhat from the stereotypical "open" American demeanor. They certainly don't just do whatever men want.
Sep 9th, 2004, 03:58 PM
#62
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If you are prudent you will be fine. I always liked getting attention from men, of course again you have to use your head and don't play the game if you aren't comfortable and if it's "NO" make sure you are consistant with that. My neice was living in London a couple of years ago, and also did some traveling: Sweden, Scotland, the Greek Islands, and she always gets a lot of attention. She never had any problems with any of it. She was careful where she went, never went out at night alone, and when she says "NO" she means it. She doesn't send "mixed signals". You're young, pretty, oh so lucky to have this opportunity, so use your good sense, go, and enjoy. Also, there ARE still women is this country that will argue that WE are a male dominated culture...the "glass ceiling" and all. I remember reading a quote: "men are always whining that we women are suffocating them. I say, if you can still hear them whine, you aren't pressing hard enough on the pillow!!!!"
Sep 9th, 2004, 05:29 PM
#63
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Closed demeanor is interesting. I would like to read that article too please tell me where it is.
I am glad that I came here for advice and I have had quite an introductionary day into Fodors. I will not be back until Sunday since I didn't tell you who won the contest it was me and now I have alot of store openings and local charity clubs to go to which will keep me busy until then.
Oh some of you might be interested to know that both of my friends who went to Europe said they had won Miss Spinach 2004 and that is what got them the attention when they actually came in as runnersup. I don't mind though because no one knows me over there YET anywhoo.
I am glad that I came here for advice and I have had quite an introductionary day into Fodors. I will not be back until Sunday since I didn't tell you who won the contest it was me and now I have alot of store openings and local charity clubs to go to which will keep me busy until then.
Oh some of you might be interested to know that both of my friends who went to Europe said they had won Miss Spinach 2004 and that is what got them the attention when they actually came in as runnersup. I don't mind though because no one knows me over there YET anywhoo.
Sep 9th, 2004, 06:50 PM
#68
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I am glad that i read this post tonight...
I laughed so much..Thanks...
Your friends are sure naive to let the dominant married males seduced them..
They should remember Sofia, Italy National pride, famous quote..Just like our dear ira eloquentely wrote it..
I laughed so much..Thanks...
Your friends are sure naive to let the dominant married males seduced them..
They should remember Sofia, Italy National pride, famous quote..Just like our dear ira eloquentely wrote it..
Sep 9th, 2004, 07:12 PM
#70
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I can't believe it! You were in the Miss Spinach pageant? I love that pageant, I did the photos for it! It's so much classier than the Miss Tomato pageant where people throw the tomatoes at the end. You were all so cute in your little green wigs and the green leotards were so adorable! Which one of the girls were you? I probably have your photo. This is such a coincidence that I just happened to come to Fodors today and I did the shoot and everything.
Sep 9th, 2004, 08:37 PM
#72
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Well this is sort of weird, I was about to post about my experience as a single woman traveling in Sicily and then I see Willtravel has posted a link to my trip report...
I did find it a bit tiring in Sicily, fending them off. I would not go back alone. I wouldn't say Sicily is "male dominated" but I would say the men there are hornier and more relentless than any other place I have been. I never felt scared, but it was constant and relentless attention. Fun at first but after a while, dudes, enough is enough. The attention had nothing to do with how I was dressed or acted - I think it was that I was alone.
I'm going back to Sicily in a few months - but with friends.
I did find it a bit tiring in Sicily, fending them off. I would not go back alone. I wouldn't say Sicily is "male dominated" but I would say the men there are hornier and more relentless than any other place I have been. I never felt scared, but it was constant and relentless attention. Fun at first but after a while, dudes, enough is enough. The attention had nothing to do with how I was dressed or acted - I think it was that I was alone.
I'm going back to Sicily in a few months - but with friends.
Sep 9th, 2004, 09:58 PM
#73
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Let's hear it for seduction! I've heard from a number of women who would LOVE to be seduced in Italy. And know several who ended up marrying their seducers. I met my own Italian in the US, I guess you could say we seduced each other. See http://www.straughan.com/aboutme/how_it_began.htm if you want the whole story.
Also see http://www.straughan.com/oped/fierce.html for a small tale of date rape drugs in Italy, and why they are uncommon.
Naive, pretty young girls will be targets of seduction wherever they go, but in Italy rape is fairly uncommon. Use the same common sense you would in any other place - don't go to uncrowded places alone at night, don't take candy from strangers, etc. On the other hand, if you're a big enough girl to keep your wits about you and have fun, well, why not?
NB: The Italian attitude towards fidelity in marriage, at least on the part of men, is, um, very relaxed compared with the American attitude. The bus driver probably saw seducing tourists as a perk of his job. I doubt he ever raped any - why should he, when they were literally falling into his lap?
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
http://www.straughan.com
Also see http://www.straughan.com/oped/fierce.html for a small tale of date rape drugs in Italy, and why they are uncommon.
Naive, pretty young girls will be targets of seduction wherever they go, but in Italy rape is fairly uncommon. Use the same common sense you would in any other place - don't go to uncrowded places alone at night, don't take candy from strangers, etc. On the other hand, if you're a big enough girl to keep your wits about you and have fun, well, why not?
NB: The Italian attitude towards fidelity in marriage, at least on the part of men, is, um, very relaxed compared with the American attitude. The bus driver probably saw seducing tourists as a perk of his job. I doubt he ever raped any - why should he, when they were literally falling into his lap?
best regards,
Deirdré Straughan
http://www.straughan.com
Sep 9th, 2004, 10:29 PM
#74
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Hello Joie,
My only addition to the advice you've received is to say that you shouldn't be afraid to come across as rude if a man approaches you and wants to strike up a conversation. When I first visited to France and Spain when I was a teenager, I always answered politely if a stranger spoke to me in the street, or in a café or wherever. However, in many parts of France and Spain (and Italy too, I can assume), by simply responding politely (rather than ignoring them or telling them to go away), I was actually sending them signals to try it on further! Smiling or being pleasant are just like waving red rags to a bull.
So if you don't want to be bothered, tell them so firmly, don't smile, and don't worry about it!
Oh, and Texasaggie gave you excellent advice about watching your drinks. It's quite a good idea to order bottled drinks if you go to a bar or club as they're easy to carry around with you - that way your drink stays within your sight.
My only addition to the advice you've received is to say that you shouldn't be afraid to come across as rude if a man approaches you and wants to strike up a conversation. When I first visited to France and Spain when I was a teenager, I always answered politely if a stranger spoke to me in the street, or in a café or wherever. However, in many parts of France and Spain (and Italy too, I can assume), by simply responding politely (rather than ignoring them or telling them to go away), I was actually sending them signals to try it on further! Smiling or being pleasant are just like waving red rags to a bull.
So if you don't want to be bothered, tell them so firmly, don't smile, and don't worry about it!
Oh, and Texasaggie gave you excellent advice about watching your drinks. It's quite a good idea to order bottled drinks if you go to a bar or club as they're easy to carry around with you - that way your drink stays within your sight.
Sep 9th, 2004, 10:59 PM
#75
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Now now don't jump to conclusions doubting Miss Spinach. I was bored and intrigued so I googled and found:
http://www.arkansasfestivalassociation.org/bycity.htm
http://www.arkansasfestivalassociation.org/bycity.htm
Sep 10th, 2004, 04:54 AM
#77
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Hi joie,
Re the "closed demeanor" attitude.
American women are much more outgoing and friendly than European women. In particular, Italian men do think that if you smile at or engage in conversation with a stranger that you are encouraging a sexual encounter.
Re the "closed demeanor" attitude.
American women are much more outgoing and friendly than European women. In particular, Italian men do think that if you smile at or engage in conversation with a stranger that you are encouraging a sexual encounter.
Sep 10th, 2004, 05:42 AM
#78
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What a greatly amusing thread. With my phone just back on after Frances, I had to connect and see what's new. Sort of related to this is the dinner I had a couple of weeks ago in an Italian restaurant here in Jupiter. It's owned and waited by real Italians. I went with a gentleman friend and made the reservation in his name out of old-fashioned courtesy. But they treated him like he was a king!! All questions and suggestions were directed to him. The check came, I paid, and when we left, it was "Mr. Hennessey, it was so nice to have you - hope you enjoyed your meal - please come back." Well, he may go back, but I - who was using my newly acquired Italian language skills - may not. Nonetheless, I love Italian men and when I've traveled alone in Italy, I enjoyed the attention and managed to never be seduced. I need to re-think that strategy.
Sep 12th, 2004, 02:53 PM
#80
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Oh my, how DID I miss this thread?
St Cirq, I just hope it was the right guy you jabbed. I don't know any of those moves, but I do have a sharp little elbow which is probably what I would have used, while making it seem like an accident to everyone but him.
Joie, several other posters have made the point well: seduction and rape are not the same thing. It is important for women to be aware of their safety here in the US as well as when traveling, but no one is in danger of "seduction" unless they are a willing partner. I think your friend who was "seduced" three times in three different cities was offering a guilty conscience version of the story.
You have gotten, in amongst the jokes and pokes, a lot of excellent advice here.
But beware of Degas, humor is the ultimate tool of seduction!
St Cirq, I just hope it was the right guy you jabbed. I don't know any of those moves, but I do have a sharp little elbow which is probably what I would have used, while making it seem like an accident to everyone but him.
Joie, several other posters have made the point well: seduction and rape are not the same thing. It is important for women to be aware of their safety here in the US as well as when traveling, but no one is in danger of "seduction" unless they are a willing partner. I think your friend who was "seduced" three times in three different cities was offering a guilty conscience version of the story.
You have gotten, in amongst the jokes and pokes, a lot of excellent advice here.
But beware of Degas, humor is the ultimate tool of seduction!
