A Male Dominated Society?
Sep 9th, 2004, 11:52 AM
#42
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In all seriousness, I think some unwanted harassment might occur, as described in this trip report:
http://www.slowtrav.com/tr/TripRepor...05&index=2
I've also read several accounts of female passengers on public transit being groped by male passengers in Italy (and elsewhere). Some women have reported that an aggressive, fight-back approach works well.
I'm a bit concerned about my upcoming trip to Italy in this respect and have considered taking a self-defense class before I go, which is probably a good idea in any event.
http://www.slowtrav.com/tr/TripRepor...05&index=2
I've also read several accounts of female passengers on public transit being groped by male passengers in Italy (and elsewhere). Some women have reported that an aggressive, fight-back approach works well.
I'm a bit concerned about my upcoming trip to Italy in this respect and have considered taking a self-defense class before I go, which is probably a good idea in any event.
Sep 9th, 2004, 11:52 AM
#43
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passive aggressive dominance is when a man tries to belittle a woman into submission and not in a straight forward way.
oaktown, sorry I am boring you but I think my question has been answered here anyway. I am going to go on my vacation and have a good time and I won't worry about the men from now on.
Thanks to you everyone.
oaktown, sorry I am boring you but I think my question has been answered here anyway. I am going to go on my vacation and have a good time and I won't worry about the men from now on.
Thanks to you everyone.
Sep 9th, 2004, 11:53 AM
#44
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Ho Joie,
The only thing I noticed was that when we dined, the bill ALWAYS was presented to my husband. In the US, the norm seems to be to place it in the middle of the table between the couple. Otherwise, no differences. You'll be just fine.
My only word of caution... I spent a couple of months after grad school traveling through Europe with my best friend (summer 2002). We met a girl in our Venice hostel who claimed something had been slipped in her drink at a Florence nightclub which caused her to act with less discretion than she normally would. If you do go to any nightclubs or dance clubs, be sure to keep an eye on your drink at ALL times and do not allow anyone to go and fetch you one from the bar - get it yourself. This is good advice anywhere, not just in Europe.
The only thing I noticed was that when we dined, the bill ALWAYS was presented to my husband. In the US, the norm seems to be to place it in the middle of the table between the couple. Otherwise, no differences. You'll be just fine.
My only word of caution... I spent a couple of months after grad school traveling through Europe with my best friend (summer 2002). We met a girl in our Venice hostel who claimed something had been slipped in her drink at a Florence nightclub which caused her to act with less discretion than she normally would. If you do go to any nightclubs or dance clubs, be sure to keep an eye on your drink at ALL times and do not allow anyone to go and fetch you one from the bar - get it yourself. This is good advice anywhere, not just in Europe.
Sep 9th, 2004, 11:56 AM
#47
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sognatrice2, the last time I played with handcuffs in Rome, I had to drag the bed headboard to the station so I wouldn't miss my train. I just hate woman who lead you on, cuff you and then steal your black boots and best cape before vanishing into the dark night.
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:01 PM
#48
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WillTravel: Please do not waste time and energy on a self-defense class. Just memorize the two very useful phrases mentioned by Sognatrice higher up in this post and don't be afraid to say them loudly if the situation calls for it. On a bus, for example, you will find that all the passengers will leap to your defense and the person paying you unwelcome attention will jump off the bus at the next stop.
There are a few buses in Rome that are notorious -- the No. 64 is the worst -- but other than that, the chances that you will encounter genuinely unwelcome attention are minimal.
There are a few buses in Rome that are notorious -- the No. 64 is the worst -- but other than that, the chances that you will encounter genuinely unwelcome attention are minimal.
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:10 PM
#49
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joiedeamour - I was "seduced" in Italy by a gorgeous guy and it was one of the highlights of my trip! I was wined and dined and danced with, and it was beautiful and magical, and I have such fond memories of the evening.
But, to me "seduced" is not "forced", or "belittled" or anything sinister. Your friends were obviously treated badly, but "seduced" is not the right word. Seduced implies romance and sponteneity. Conned, maybe?
Either way, I found Italian men to be attentive and nice, and the ones I met certainly understood NO if they were being too attentive. Just act confident and aloof when you want to ward off advances. You will be fine.
Have a great time.
Karen
But, to me "seduced" is not "forced", or "belittled" or anything sinister. Your friends were obviously treated badly, but "seduced" is not the right word. Seduced implies romance and sponteneity. Conned, maybe?
Either way, I found Italian men to be attentive and nice, and the ones I met certainly understood NO if they were being too attentive. Just act confident and aloof when you want to ward off advances. You will be fine.
Have a great time.
Karen
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:20 PM
#50
To answer your question above... "Pretty women" are common enough especially if they're young. "Not well traveled" maybe somewhat less common on Fodors BB since traveling is a shared experience that brings us here.
Having said that, getting hit on (I'm still unclear if they actually had sex) over & over if they did not want the attention shows a lack of savvy on their parts. You treat it like it is a compliment, even while you are worried it might happen to you.
Are you really going to use your self-defense class move on the guy who rubs his crotch against you on a public bus?
Having said that, getting hit on (I'm still unclear if they actually had sex) over & over if they did not want the attention shows a lack of savvy on their parts. You treat it like it is a compliment, even while you are worried it might happen to you.
Are you really going to use your self-defense class move on the guy who rubs his crotch against you on a public bus?
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:23 PM
#51
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Presumably the last sentence is directed at me. I don't know what I would do in that case other than to move away - what would you do, suze? On the other hand, why should he get away with doing that? A forceful response might discourage him from future maneuvers.
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:32 PM
#52
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I can freeze unwanted attention pretty well, always could.
In French I'd say "laissez moi tranquil" if that doesn't work, a voice like Ethel Merman's telling them to get the hell away from me probably would work...
Degas? THANK YOU SO MUCH for today, you made a bad day better... (had to take the headboard...leaves your best cape...sheeeeeesh)...
a bientot mon amis
In French I'd say "laissez moi tranquil" if that doesn't work, a voice like Ethel Merman's telling them to get the hell away from me probably would work...
Degas? THANK YOU SO MUCH for today, you made a bad day better... (had to take the headboard...leaves your best cape...sheeeeeesh)...
a bientot mon amis
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:32 PM
#53
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WillTravel:
I think self-defense classes are a great idea, especially for any woman who approaches traveling alone in foreign places with some trepidation.
I acquired a brown belt in karate many years ago, and the first place I had a chance to use it was on a Paris métro train in the late 1970s. A guy did exactly what was described above, and even though the train was pretty packed (which made it easy for him to target me), I managed to turn around and do that little thing they teach you in the first few classes - jab two fingers REALLY HARD into that soft spot at the base of the neck. I can still hear that guy's surprised shriek and the words of praise I got from some of the passengers. The little wuss got off two seconds later, the minute the train stopped. Some of those simple little maneuvers they teach you can be quite useful.
I think self-defense classes are a great idea, especially for any woman who approaches traveling alone in foreign places with some trepidation.
I acquired a brown belt in karate many years ago, and the first place I had a chance to use it was on a Paris métro train in the late 1970s. A guy did exactly what was described above, and even though the train was pretty packed (which made it easy for him to target me), I managed to turn around and do that little thing they teach you in the first few classes - jab two fingers REALLY HARD into that soft spot at the base of the neck. I can still hear that guy's surprised shriek and the words of praise I got from some of the passengers. The little wuss got off two seconds later, the minute the train stopped. Some of those simple little maneuvers they teach you can be quite useful.
Sep 9th, 2004, 12:33 PM
#54
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WillTravel: I don't think the last sentence was directed at you; the OP said something about having studied wrestling, if I recall correctly.
But please do have a look at my message to you a few posts higher up.
But please do have a look at my message to you a few posts higher up.
Sep 9th, 2004, 01:04 PM
#56
(WillTravel) I didn't pay attention to who mentioned self-defense class but couldn't picture someone actually using it... so that's great to hear one poster's story of defending herself on the Paris Metro!
In fact I was jumped years ago in my home city of Seattle and thru instinct and adrenaline managed to fight off what I believe to have been an attempted rape. It had nothing to do with "seduction" or flirting.
I've been abroad 28 trips to date and have never been in the situations being described and worried about here. Why I am puzzled about much of this thread is that all the "unwanted" attention seems something that is being bragged about and to be hoped for or at least expected. I believe except for the most extreme situations (i.e. rape or robbery with a weapon) it can most certainly be avoided with a little smarts and finesse.
In fact I was jumped years ago in my home city of Seattle and thru instinct and adrenaline managed to fight off what I believe to have been an attempted rape. It had nothing to do with "seduction" or flirting.
I've been abroad 28 trips to date and have never been in the situations being described and worried about here. Why I am puzzled about much of this thread is that all the "unwanted" attention seems something that is being bragged about and to be hoped for or at least expected. I believe except for the most extreme situations (i.e. rape or robbery with a weapon) it can most certainly be avoided with a little smarts and finesse.
Sep 9th, 2004, 01:06 PM
#57
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I appreciate your nice answers. It was a problem with my friends the men could not keep away from them. We all met in a local beauty contest so I guess it went to my friends heads and they dressed immodestly.
Their problem was they were naive and I wanted some information here so I would not be naive. I see this has happened to some of you other women and you even have good memories of it. I was planning on going to some clubs so Texasaggie thank you for the heads up and the skirts down I think I have it down pat now.
Their problem was they were naive and I wanted some information here so I would not be naive. I see this has happened to some of you other women and you even have good memories of it. I was planning on going to some clubs so Texasaggie thank you for the heads up and the skirts down I think I have it down pat now.
Sep 9th, 2004, 01:19 PM
#58
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Joie you sound level-headed, just go and have a nice trip. Enjoy Europe while you are young and fresh from your beauty contest. After reading these posts you have probably gained some knowledge and you won't be naive.
You might meet some men but just like in the US use discretion and you'll be fine.
I think it is cute that you were in the local contest, that must have been a fun experience.
You might meet some men but just like in the US use discretion and you'll be fine.
I think it is cute that you were in the local contest, that must have been a fun experience.
Sep 9th, 2004, 03:34 PM
#60
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Yes the contest was alot of fun and really changed my life. We all went into the finals together and then they went off to celebrate in June and I couldn't go with them. Now I am planning on my trip with my other friend and they were teasing me about getting seduced in Europe by wiley men. They said the women over there do what the men want and don't have a real say in an old fashioned society structure.
If you experienced tourists have other opinions then I will believe you because you have no reason to fabricate stories to me.
If you experienced tourists have other opinions then I will believe you because you have no reason to fabricate stories to me.
