Eontheway

Hello Everyone- I have enjoyed reading your advice for other travellers. I will be visiting family in Scotland in June/ July- and for the last 2 weeks in June and first week in July my daughter, her fiance and I (50+ Australian woman) hope to head to Europe for our first visit. We have 18 days. Will be leaving from London and of course want to see EVERYTHING!

Now I know that's not possible and from what I've read many of you will advise to concentrate on one area or one city or one country. And I can understand this BUT the problem is when it costs $2,500 (AUD) to get there and back - you can't plan to go popping half way across the world on a regular basis. (as much as I would love to)

So the proposed itinerary is this and I would appreciate some feedback bearing in mind what I have written above:
From London
Fly to Rome- 5 nights
Train to Venice - 3 nights
Train to Switzerland - 3 Nights (not sure where - would like to get up to a swiss alps village)
Train to Paris - 5 nights
Train to London or fly to Scotland

Now is this at all possible? I realise these are only tasters and will not give us an immersion in local culture. Our main activities will be Vatican City in Rome and the Louvre in Paris. Apart from that we will probably want to walk, meet the locals, experience the culture, food and language and get a generalised 'feel' for each location. So any support or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance E

StCirq

Sounds reasonable to me, except for "meet the locals." Not sure what you mean by that. I'm never sure what ANYONE means by that, actually. It's not as though the average European is hanging around waiting to befriend the average tourist, if you know what I mean. I suppose you might get lucky and strike up a conversation in a bar or cafe, but I can tell you that as a homeowner in France I can go for weeks without having any interaction at all with "the locals," and that includes my neighbors. But your basic itinerary is a good one, IMO.

rs899

I think that is do-able and OK for samplers in those cities. Just keep in mind most of the travel will kill basically a whole day (other than Rome to Venice). You might want to look into night trains to the extent possible to minimize loss of daylight sightseeing.

jetsetj

sorry but forget Switzerland and pray to come back again.
I went to Europe first time in 1988 and have been back 5 times now.
Funny how things work out if you really want them bad enough. I am not happy unless there is an itinerary on my frig

Palenque

Train to Switzerland - 3 Nights (not sure where - would like to get up to a swiss alps village)>

To me your outline for the Continent is just fine - i would however recommend adding a day or two to Switzerland and perhaps taking a day out of Rome and Paris - and i would definitely recommend heading to the Berner Oberland - the Jungfrau Region just south of Interlaken, gateway to this fantastic Alpine wonderland of glaciers, ice-girdled peaks, tiny mountain-climbing trains, aerial gondolas and hiking paths for all degrees of difficulty.
Everyone your age raves about Wengen - take a train there from Interlaken - a remote Alpine village with, arguably, the finest vistas in the Jungfrau area - arguably because there are so many other neat places to, like Grindelwald, Lauterbrunnen and Murren - all fitting your desire of a Swiss Alps village - these places ooze cozy down-comfortor-eqipped family run chalet-style, flower boxed guesthouses -with balconies from which to drink up the intoxicating views of the rugged Jungfrau peaks - cow bells tinkling always it seems in the distance.
Swiss trains are the way to go IMO - in fact cars cannot even be driven in much of the Jungfrau Region up from Interlaken and must be parked, at steep fees, in lots at entrances to cities - Wengen cannot even be reached by car. Even with a 4-day stay strongly consider the Swiss Pass - a real bargain IMO - that covers trains, lake boats (taking a boat ride on either Lake Thun or Lake Brienz - the two lakes that bookend Interlaken - is to me one of the nicer things to do - the area is not just all mountains) and the pass also covers postal buses - city transports - in short everything that moves almost in Switzerland, except cows. The pass also gives free entry to 400+ museums - like the famous Ballenberg Open-air museum overlooking Lake Brienz - which costs about $20 to get in. Great info-laden sites that will detail both Swiss and Italian trains i always spotlight - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free (and superb IMO) European Planning & Rail Guide that has a nice chapter on Switzerland with itineraries, rail maps, etc.) - and for Swiss trains, lake boats, etc www.swisstravelsystem.com - which links you to the www.sbb.ch or Swiss Federal Railways site for schedules.
Anyway IMO the Jungfrau Region is the absolute highlight of Switzerland for the first-time visitor - the quintessential picture of Switzerland etches in your minds' eyes. And it is about half-way by train between Rome/Venice and Paris - Paris being just a few hours away now by the new TGV-Est high-speed train that barrels along at about 190 mph in Frane.

fmpden

If you know what we are going to say and you understand then why are you asking the question? I know!! You want someone to say that the common advice is wrong and go for it. Will go for it. It is called the learning cruse. But I am a sucker who is some advice. You really should consider an open jaw ticket -- into London and home from Rome. You are covering a lot of territory and the open jaw would save time and money. Second, we always plan on losing at least a half day if not a full day of sightseeing when changing locations. It is time consuming to pack/unpack, check in and out of hotels, find trains, ride trains, find new hotel, get oriented to new location, etc., etc. With five, maybe six location changes, you losing five days of an 18 day -- a quarter or more of your time will be spent traveling. That is a big time waste for someone who wants to get the most of their travel dollar and a lot of additional expense.

You make a comment that you want to SEE everything. That is accurate -- you will see lot of things. Sort of drive by and check it off the list. Like someone who posted that they just want to be able to say that they had see a particular cathedral but didn't care about going inside. You are responsible, not us, for establishing your travel priorities. If this meets you needs, then do it. Many others, including myself, would not do it.

ira

Hi E,

I would pass CH this trip.

Do you have to go back to Scotland?

If you took the Eurostar to Paris, flew www.myair.com to Venice, trained to Rome and flew home from there, you could do

6 nights Paris, 6 nights Rome and 4 nights Venice.

Enjoy your visit.

suec1

fmpden - your suggestion of an open jaw ticket makes alot of sense but otherwise I think you're a bit discouraging. I think the intial plan is not bad - 5 days in Paris and 5 days in Rome gives them time for some moderately paced sightseeing as well as cafe sitting - plus their list of "must sees" is not ambitious. Yes they have some travel time but maybe a night train (for the experience?) and then going thru Switzerland could be quite scenic. They're Aussies - probably won't be back to Europe on a yearly basis so to cover a variety of coutries makes sense and they have a decent amount of time. Have a great trip, Eontheway and do check out some Rick Steves material, he gives good advice on priorities - which sights are must sees to spend your somewhat limitied time on.

TravMimi

I would take a day off of Paris, and add it to Switzerland. We like to stay in Lauterbrunnen. There is lots to see and do. Murren has a great Via Ferrata/Klettersteige if you are so inclined.

jent103

Add me to the list who think your original itinerary is just fine, though I agree that you might do some research into what exactly you want to do in each place and think about adding a day to Switzerland.

I do definitely agree with looking into an open-jaw ticket, if you haven't bought them already and there's no reason you need to return to the UK. It'll save you time and headache! Plus might save you a day you could add to Switzerland without taking it from another city.

azzure

This looks good to me. Some folks try to do a similar itinerary in just 14 days...18 days makes it a lot more leisurely.

janisj

" . . many of you will advise to concentrate on one area or one city or one country. And I can understand this BUT . . . "

That may be true -- but w/ 18 days,I think very few would say you need to stick to one area. Those posts are mostly reserved for itineraries that cover what you want -- but in half the time.

Your plan is actually not bad at all. If you haven't already bought your flights - definitely consider open jaw into the UK and out of Italy.

I wouldn't cut time in Paris. Whether you keep or drop Switzerland mainly depends on if you decide to add time to Paris or Italy. 3 days in ONE are of Switzerland would be great -- but dashing all around the country wouldn't be IMO.

Eontheway

Well- what can I say- wonderful advice and ideas- I have purchased tickets to and from Scotland and have not included the days in Scotland that occur before and after our Europe stretch.
We can turn the itinerary around and train to Paris and fly out of Rome to return to London but I had checked the weather and thought it better to go to Rome first before the hotter weather in July.
StCirq, RS899, JanisJ, SUEC1, Azzure, jent 103- thanks for the understanding and ideas
IRA- that does make sense to fly over Switzerland so will look at air prices
Palenque and TRavMimi- thanks for the Switz ideas- you make it sound great.
fmpden- thanks for the feedback and as you said the open jaw is a great idea

Wonderful and thanks
E

annhig

hi E,

why not fly straight to Rome from Scotland, and then work your way back?

make Paris your last stop before London and you can get the eurostar, which would be fun.

dgassa

To meet the locals I suggest staying in Bed and Breakfasts. Usually run by a couple or family and in many cases less expensive than hotels. Many will provide dinner in a family setting for an extra cost. Just search for "bed and breakfast" in the city or town you are visiting. We stayed in bed and breakfasts on a trip in 2006 and met many friendly locals. You can read about our trip on my blog here.

http://tinyurl.com/yhrkzam

nytraveler

Agree that the itinerary is reasonable. but I too don;t get the meet the locals. the locals have their own very busy lives and european socities as a whole are not as open as are the US and Australia. Not that people will be unpleasant. They will be very pleasant - but in the nature of things you will mostly be meeting people in hotels, restaurants, shops etc on a purely professional basis. If you stay in B&Bs you will meet the hosts, who again will be pleasant - but do not look to begin lifelong friendships with all of their guests.

I have been to europe more than 70 times between work and vacation - and the only (3) europeans that I have ongoing relationships with are ones that I worked with for a week or more - and so got to know in a structured environment.

Although it's certainly possible to strike up conversations in pubs and cafes (but more difficult in the latter, and how fluent are you in languages other than English) generlly they are quite impersonal, although pleasant.

StCirq

B&Bs MIGHT be a way to "meet the locals," but IME, a whole lot of B&Bs are run by expats who buy a property, turn it into a B&B so they can help pay for it, and advertise it to their own countrymen, who come in part at least because there's no language barrier. That sounds more disparaging than I mean it to...there are plenty of lovely B&B owners...but I can say from my experience in the Dordogne, at least half the B&B owners are transplanted Brits who cater to British and American tourists who would rather not have to haul out some French to order breakfast. And they certainly aren't "locals" by any stretch. I had the same experience with B&Bs in Umbria (though the agriturismos were uniformly run by locals, of course).

janisj

Even IF the B&B is run by a local -- it really isn't a 'meet the natives' experience. The other guests are all visitors like yourselves -- and the owner is usually too busy running the place to have time for a lot of chit chat.

Palenque

Even IF the B&B is run by a local -- it really isn't a 'meet the natives' experience. The other guests are all visitors like yourselves -- and the owner is usually too busy running the place to have time for a lot of chit chat.>

depends on the B&B

I just stayed a week at a B&B in Haarlem where all the other guests were Dutch and the owner managed to chat more than i wanted. But in larger cities what janisj says more than likely will be the case. Still i often stay in B&Bs - including in Florence and the 'family' there is Chinese who hardly speak English a'tal. Smaller town B&Bs it seems attract more folks from that country - people on business - to see family, etc. and are a whole different proposition than a B&B say in London.
I also often stay in B&Bs in suburban London and the old lady owner often likes to chat and the other patrons are usually Brits themselves - in central London that would rarely be the case.
B&Bs are great for price - at least true B&Bs in someone's residence and not glorified B&Bs in say London that really are small hotels - i pay 21 pounds a night for my suburban London B&B - with all-you-can-eat breakfast and 32 euros in Haarlem - aagain unlimited breakfast buffet. Now these are great prices for a single traveler but if you have two then budget hotels may be as cheap.
Best thing about B&Bs to me is that they are in real neighborhoods and not in the city centres - i'm talking of traditional family-run B&Bs in their domiciles.