organized travel to China
Jan 1st, 2004 | 05:05 PM
#1
Original Poster
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 41
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organized travel to China
I'd like to follow Peter's advice on Academic Travel Abroad but our travel dates are not flexible and their dates do not fit ours. We are considering Isramworld (www.isram.com)
Does anybody have experience with them as tour operators? Their prices are very reasonable but usually you get what you pay for. Any advice?
Manenita
Does anybody have experience with them as tour operators? Their prices are very reasonable but usually you get what you pay for. Any advice?
Manenita
Jan 3rd, 2004 | 08:01 AM
#2
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
I have personal experience with Tauck tours traveling to China. We traveled October 2001 for 17 days. The 17 days was actual travel time in China, as Tauck does not include travel days to and from the destination in their itinerary, which many other organized travel tour operators do, which can be deceiving regarding the actual number of days on your tour. (When you compare tour operators, and costs, compare actual days in country). We were accompanied by an American Tauck travel director who had lived in China, but also had a Chinese guide join us in each city we visited, in addition to a Driver for the bus. ALL tips and expenses were included in the cost, except the tip for the American Tauck travel director.
We were the first boat out on the Li River which made a big difference in the experience, as we did not have any boats in front of us heading down the river. Tauck also paid for a police escort to the Great Wall, as the traffic jams in China would have extended our trip to and from the wall without it. It was our first organized tour ever, and I have to say I enjoyed it much more than I originally thought I would. Tauck includes some special activities that are not listed in their brochures, which are again included in the cost. They steer you away from shopping opportunities that they feel might rip you off, and never did I feel that we went somewhere just to "shop". They have a very liberal cancelation policy if you purchase the trip insurance plan. We met some wonderful people from around the world on our tour. We could not have traveled as economically going where we went, staying in the hotels that we stayed at, and eating at a level that we ate at if we had independently traveled on our own. By the way, they have a wonderful "dine-around" plan, where you can eat at the restaurants in the hotels independently (without your travel companions if you so choose), and choose ANYTHING on the menu regardless of the cost...you just sign your name...it is included in the price of the tour. I hope this is helpful.
We were the first boat out on the Li River which made a big difference in the experience, as we did not have any boats in front of us heading down the river. Tauck also paid for a police escort to the Great Wall, as the traffic jams in China would have extended our trip to and from the wall without it. It was our first organized tour ever, and I have to say I enjoyed it much more than I originally thought I would. Tauck includes some special activities that are not listed in their brochures, which are again included in the cost. They steer you away from shopping opportunities that they feel might rip you off, and never did I feel that we went somewhere just to "shop". They have a very liberal cancelation policy if you purchase the trip insurance plan. We met some wonderful people from around the world on our tour. We could not have traveled as economically going where we went, staying in the hotels that we stayed at, and eating at a level that we ate at if we had independently traveled on our own. By the way, they have a wonderful "dine-around" plan, where you can eat at the restaurants in the hotels independently (without your travel companions if you so choose), and choose ANYTHING on the menu regardless of the cost...you just sign your name...it is included in the price of the tour. I hope this is helpful.
Jan 3rd, 2004 | 09:26 AM
#3
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
It is always wrong to assume in China that organized travel is cheaper than independent travel, much as tour companies and their Web sites would have you believe it, and much as once you've actually bought a tour you want to assume so yourself.
Arriving in China and buying accommodation and transport sensibly as you go, bargaining here and there, is always considerably cheaper, although certainly less convenient. But anyone who usually travels independently elsewhere should do so in China, too.
From the description above, Tauck sounds on the right lines, certainly as regards tipping, but the question of shopping stops might bear closer examination.
Does 'They steer you away from shopping opportunities that they feel might rip you off, and never did I feel that we went somewhere just to "shop"' mean that there were *no* shopping stops?
If not, then 'steering you away from' one place but towards another is not likely to be different from any other tour, and you would still be unwise to shop in the place to which you are directed.
If the aim of the stop seemed to be, say, to see craftsmen at work, or visit a factory, and so described as not 'just to "shop"', then you've experienced a classic shopping stop of the kind where you should keep your wallet firmly in your pocket.
But there are some companies which handle all this better than others, and perhaps Tauck is one of them. Having a guide from home who knows China well and is a Mandarin-speaker is always worth paying more for, if you are going to take a tour.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Arriving in China and buying accommodation and transport sensibly as you go, bargaining here and there, is always considerably cheaper, although certainly less convenient. But anyone who usually travels independently elsewhere should do so in China, too.
From the description above, Tauck sounds on the right lines, certainly as regards tipping, but the question of shopping stops might bear closer examination.
Does 'They steer you away from shopping opportunities that they feel might rip you off, and never did I feel that we went somewhere just to "shop"' mean that there were *no* shopping stops?
If not, then 'steering you away from' one place but towards another is not likely to be different from any other tour, and you would still be unwise to shop in the place to which you are directed.
If the aim of the stop seemed to be, say, to see craftsmen at work, or visit a factory, and so described as not 'just to "shop"', then you've experienced a classic shopping stop of the kind where you should keep your wallet firmly in your pocket.
But there are some companies which handle all this better than others, and perhaps Tauck is one of them. Having a guide from home who knows China well and is a Mandarin-speaker is always worth paying more for, if you are going to take a tour.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 3rd, 2004 | 10:42 AM
#4
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Peter:
1) Manenita specifically inquired about an tour operator, and although I do not have experience with isram, I thought I would share my experience with Tauck.
2) I maintain,an organized tour is NOT always cheaper than traveling independently, if you compare "apples to apples", not "apples to oranges", as the saying goes. If, as you said, you want to "bargain sensibly as you go" during independent travel, and are comfortable navigating in an unfamiliar country with an unfamiliar language, then travel independently, don't take a tour. I have always done this myself, but was not comfortable doing so in China.
3)Tour operators have their own connections, and buy in bulk, so they often get deals that an independent traveler is not privy to, irregardless of their bargaining skills. I maintain that the hotels that I stayed in with Tauck while in China, I would not have been able to afford if I independently planned and paid for the EXACT same itinerary and hotels on my own. Also, this was the first vacation, that when flights were cancelled, I sat and read my book in an executive travel lounge, arranged for by our tour director, with my co-travelers, while our tour director was the one to navigate the system which was made up of airline personnel who did NOT speak English. In addition, we also were able to order meals that if we traveled independently, we could not afford. For example the $150 grouper in Hong Kong (for one person) at the Inter-continental hotel, which my husband ordered, in addition to the appetizer, and dessert, (exclusive of my meal), we never would have done, and which was included in the flat cost of the tour.
4) Also, they did steer us away from irreputable proprietors who had a reputation of ripping off unsuspecting travelers. Interestingly, I had an aquaintance who was in China on a professional trip, and she complained that she was given the wrong change on a few occasions before she understood the unfamiliar currency. Our tour director specifically told us about this practice, and suggested we avoid those establishments when we independently walked through the streets.
I admit, I never thought we would have been happy with an organized tour, since we have always traveled independently, but considering our experiences, we were pleased with our decision.
Anyway, this explanation is getting way too long. So, If you are looking for a tour operator, I thought Tauck did a nice job.
Thanks for listening.
1) Manenita specifically inquired about an tour operator, and although I do not have experience with isram, I thought I would share my experience with Tauck.
2) I maintain,an organized tour is NOT always cheaper than traveling independently, if you compare "apples to apples", not "apples to oranges", as the saying goes. If, as you said, you want to "bargain sensibly as you go" during independent travel, and are comfortable navigating in an unfamiliar country with an unfamiliar language, then travel independently, don't take a tour. I have always done this myself, but was not comfortable doing so in China.
3)Tour operators have their own connections, and buy in bulk, so they often get deals that an independent traveler is not privy to, irregardless of their bargaining skills. I maintain that the hotels that I stayed in with Tauck while in China, I would not have been able to afford if I independently planned and paid for the EXACT same itinerary and hotels on my own. Also, this was the first vacation, that when flights were cancelled, I sat and read my book in an executive travel lounge, arranged for by our tour director, with my co-travelers, while our tour director was the one to navigate the system which was made up of airline personnel who did NOT speak English. In addition, we also were able to order meals that if we traveled independently, we could not afford. For example the $150 grouper in Hong Kong (for one person) at the Inter-continental hotel, which my husband ordered, in addition to the appetizer, and dessert, (exclusive of my meal), we never would have done, and which was included in the flat cost of the tour.
4) Also, they did steer us away from irreputable proprietors who had a reputation of ripping off unsuspecting travelers. Interestingly, I had an aquaintance who was in China on a professional trip, and she complained that she was given the wrong change on a few occasions before she understood the unfamiliar currency. Our tour director specifically told us about this practice, and suggested we avoid those establishments when we independently walked through the streets.
I admit, I never thought we would have been happy with an organized tour, since we have always traveled independently, but considering our experiences, we were pleased with our decision.
Anyway, this explanation is getting way too long. So, If you are looking for a tour operator, I thought Tauck did a nice job.
Thanks for listening.
Jan 3rd, 2004 | 01:00 PM
#5
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
> 2) I maintain,an organized tour is NOT always cheaper than traveling independently, if you compare "apples to apples", not "apples to oranges", as the saying goes.
I don't think anyone has claimed that is it *always* cheaper to travel independently. But it is always cheaper to do so *in China* (and some other Asian countries).
When you look at published rates for individual services and compare with the components of your tour of course the tour looks cheaper. But this is the apples to oranges comparison. No one pays the published rates, or even, usually, 50% of them.
> 3)Tour operators have their own connections, and buy in bulk, so they often get deals that an independent traveler is not privy to, irregardless of their bargaining skills.
But in China this is simply not the case, I'm sorry. Foreign tour operators are almost all using the same Chinese ground-handlers, and your guide today is another tour company's tomorrow. Almost all buy all their services within China through one or two monolithic agencies which have national networks, and all of which have their hands firmly in the pockets of the foreign buyer. That unnecessary mark-up, plus further administration and marketing costs and a decent profit to the foreign company, end up in your final bill. You can often get for yourself the rates the local tour company gets, before the substantial mark-up to the foreign tour company and other add-ons. Travelling more cheaply than tours in China is easy.
The only guaranteed saving for the bulk purchaser is on the international airfare part of the trip, and the saving passed on to you is not enough to swallow the balance of extra costs added elsewhere, especially if you shop wisely for airfares yourself.
Nevertheless, convenience is more important than price to many, and if a tour is to be booked, then for economic safety it indeed makes more sense to book with a reliable name based in your own country than directly with the Chinese tour company which will actually supply the services on the ground, although the price will be higher.
> I maintain that the hotels that I stayed in with Tauck while in China, I would not have been able to afford if I independently planned and paid for the EXACT same itinerary and hotels on my own.
I'm sorry, but this, for the reasons given above, is largely not the case, and travelling independently you would likely have had the pleasure of finding different, similar or better hotels, perhap with better rooms for better room rates.
Upper end hotels in Hong Kong behave more like those in the West and there are bulk rates for agencies which individual travellers cannot obtain, for instance. But even there, at certain times of year, they can, and taking the mainland in general it would be a very special itinerary indeed which could not be managed more cheaply by independent travellers.
> In addition, we also were able to order meals that if we traveled independently, we could not afford. For example the $150 grouper in Hong Kong (for one person) at the Inter-continental hotel, which my husband ordered, in addition to the appetizer, and dessert, (exclusive of my meal), we never would have done, and which was included in the flat cost of the tour.
Had you travelled independently, you would likely have been able to buy the same meal several times over with the money saved.
> 4) Also, they did steer us away from irreputable proprietors who had a reputation of ripping off unsuspecting travelers.
Forgive me, but you don't know that, do you? Perhaps you were steered towards proprietors of more benefit to the local guides? All proprietors 'rip-off unsuspecting traveler'--it's in the nature of the barter system, where familiarity with real local prices is as important as money itself.
Short-changing is the least of the problems. Misrepresentation, marking up prices by as much as 15 times for foreigners, paying large kick-backs to local guides, providing tour members with discount vouchers whose purpose is in fact to ensure the mark-up is high enough and the kick-back goes to the right guide--these are the main problems.
The question remains as to just how many shopping stops (factory, workshop, souvenir, art school) there were, which hasn't been made clear. Really good companies keep these to a minimum (although the ground handlers try to insert as many extras as they can get away with). In general, the fewer the shopping stops, the higher the tour price. Cheap tours end up more expensive for the compulsive shopper than expensive tours for those who keep their hands in their pockets at shopping shops (or whose tours include very few of them). Tours with no shopping stops at all are almost non-existent.
In choosing a tour company, the main issues to consider for China (so beyond the obvious ones for everywhere else--itinerary, overall costs, timing, age and interests of likely group members, physical difficulty, comfort level, cancellation policy, etc.) are:
Is the company a genuine foreign tour company? It's more expensive, but buy from a company based in a country whose laws you can bring to bear in case the trip is not as advertised or there are other problems for which you should be compensated. Things often go wrong in China as corners will be cut to save money wherever the local operator thinks he can get away with it. Booking an accompanied tour with a Mandarin-speaking foreign tour leader who can ensure quality control as the trip proceeds is a good idea. Foreign guides also usually have a far better knowledge of Chinese history, and a far greater honesty about it, than local guides
What is the company's policy on tipping? If you are being advised to tip so many dollars a day to local guides and drivers then you are simply paying higher prices through the back door, and being charged a foreigner tax. Add those costs to the total tour cost for a real comparison with other companies who understand better how China works
Exactly how many shopping shops will there be? On a two-week tour it can range from two (very rarely less), to one per major city, to more than one a day. If you shop at these you will pay a great deal more than you need to for everything you buy. If you just sit them out it's dull, and a waste of time if you'd rather be looking at ancient sites, for instance.
From the description given Tauck does indeed seem to score well on these criteria (although it's not clear on the shopping issue), and obviously gave satisfaction to at least one traveller. But if contacting Tauck, or any other tour company, ask the hard questions suggested above.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
I don't think anyone has claimed that is it *always* cheaper to travel independently. But it is always cheaper to do so *in China* (and some other Asian countries).
When you look at published rates for individual services and compare with the components of your tour of course the tour looks cheaper. But this is the apples to oranges comparison. No one pays the published rates, or even, usually, 50% of them.
> 3)Tour operators have their own connections, and buy in bulk, so they often get deals that an independent traveler is not privy to, irregardless of their bargaining skills.
But in China this is simply not the case, I'm sorry. Foreign tour operators are almost all using the same Chinese ground-handlers, and your guide today is another tour company's tomorrow. Almost all buy all their services within China through one or two monolithic agencies which have national networks, and all of which have their hands firmly in the pockets of the foreign buyer. That unnecessary mark-up, plus further administration and marketing costs and a decent profit to the foreign company, end up in your final bill. You can often get for yourself the rates the local tour company gets, before the substantial mark-up to the foreign tour company and other add-ons. Travelling more cheaply than tours in China is easy.
The only guaranteed saving for the bulk purchaser is on the international airfare part of the trip, and the saving passed on to you is not enough to swallow the balance of extra costs added elsewhere, especially if you shop wisely for airfares yourself.
Nevertheless, convenience is more important than price to many, and if a tour is to be booked, then for economic safety it indeed makes more sense to book with a reliable name based in your own country than directly with the Chinese tour company which will actually supply the services on the ground, although the price will be higher.
> I maintain that the hotels that I stayed in with Tauck while in China, I would not have been able to afford if I independently planned and paid for the EXACT same itinerary and hotels on my own.
I'm sorry, but this, for the reasons given above, is largely not the case, and travelling independently you would likely have had the pleasure of finding different, similar or better hotels, perhap with better rooms for better room rates.
Upper end hotels in Hong Kong behave more like those in the West and there are bulk rates for agencies which individual travellers cannot obtain, for instance. But even there, at certain times of year, they can, and taking the mainland in general it would be a very special itinerary indeed which could not be managed more cheaply by independent travellers.
> In addition, we also were able to order meals that if we traveled independently, we could not afford. For example the $150 grouper in Hong Kong (for one person) at the Inter-continental hotel, which my husband ordered, in addition to the appetizer, and dessert, (exclusive of my meal), we never would have done, and which was included in the flat cost of the tour.
Had you travelled independently, you would likely have been able to buy the same meal several times over with the money saved.
> 4) Also, they did steer us away from irreputable proprietors who had a reputation of ripping off unsuspecting travelers.
Forgive me, but you don't know that, do you? Perhaps you were steered towards proprietors of more benefit to the local guides? All proprietors 'rip-off unsuspecting traveler'--it's in the nature of the barter system, where familiarity with real local prices is as important as money itself.
Short-changing is the least of the problems. Misrepresentation, marking up prices by as much as 15 times for foreigners, paying large kick-backs to local guides, providing tour members with discount vouchers whose purpose is in fact to ensure the mark-up is high enough and the kick-back goes to the right guide--these are the main problems.
The question remains as to just how many shopping stops (factory, workshop, souvenir, art school) there were, which hasn't been made clear. Really good companies keep these to a minimum (although the ground handlers try to insert as many extras as they can get away with). In general, the fewer the shopping stops, the higher the tour price. Cheap tours end up more expensive for the compulsive shopper than expensive tours for those who keep their hands in their pockets at shopping shops (or whose tours include very few of them). Tours with no shopping stops at all are almost non-existent.
In choosing a tour company, the main issues to consider for China (so beyond the obvious ones for everywhere else--itinerary, overall costs, timing, age and interests of likely group members, physical difficulty, comfort level, cancellation policy, etc.) are:
Is the company a genuine foreign tour company? It's more expensive, but buy from a company based in a country whose laws you can bring to bear in case the trip is not as advertised or there are other problems for which you should be compensated. Things often go wrong in China as corners will be cut to save money wherever the local operator thinks he can get away with it. Booking an accompanied tour with a Mandarin-speaking foreign tour leader who can ensure quality control as the trip proceeds is a good idea. Foreign guides also usually have a far better knowledge of Chinese history, and a far greater honesty about it, than local guides
What is the company's policy on tipping? If you are being advised to tip so many dollars a day to local guides and drivers then you are simply paying higher prices through the back door, and being charged a foreigner tax. Add those costs to the total tour cost for a real comparison with other companies who understand better how China works
Exactly how many shopping shops will there be? On a two-week tour it can range from two (very rarely less), to one per major city, to more than one a day. If you shop at these you will pay a great deal more than you need to for everything you buy. If you just sit them out it's dull, and a waste of time if you'd rather be looking at ancient sites, for instance.
From the description given Tauck does indeed seem to score well on these criteria (although it's not clear on the shopping issue), and obviously gave satisfaction to at least one traveller. But if contacting Tauck, or any other tour company, ask the hard questions suggested above.
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
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Jan 4th, 2004 | 06:32 PM
#8
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
I have used China Travel Service out of their Hong Kong office several times and have been very pleased. They will do tours for a minimum of two people and this allows you to tailor things a bit to fit your interests.
I'm more of a visitor than I am a tourist and although I enjoy the major attractions to some extent I prefer to spend more time with real local people and less time shopping. CTS has been great about tailoring the tours to fit my preferences.
I've even used CTS several times as a tour of one person. The pricing has been better than the best deals that I can put together for myself and they have been meticulous about details.
I've used them in Beijing, Gulin and Yangshou, Shanghai. Having a private car with driver and an english speaking guide sounds like a luxury, but its very affordable and a great way to make the most of your time. In fact the tours I've taken with CTS including air, land, most meals, guide and driver and single supplement have been less than my air and hotel alone would have been.
I use their Hong Kong office as I am typically in Hong Kong for business and taking side trips into Chinese mainland for pleasure. All my bookings have been via e-mail and should you desire a contact at CTS China please post your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the contact info. You can also go to their website and start from there (www.ctshk.com)
I'm more of a visitor than I am a tourist and although I enjoy the major attractions to some extent I prefer to spend more time with real local people and less time shopping. CTS has been great about tailoring the tours to fit my preferences.
I've even used CTS several times as a tour of one person. The pricing has been better than the best deals that I can put together for myself and they have been meticulous about details.
I've used them in Beijing, Gulin and Yangshou, Shanghai. Having a private car with driver and an english speaking guide sounds like a luxury, but its very affordable and a great way to make the most of your time. In fact the tours I've taken with CTS including air, land, most meals, guide and driver and single supplement have been less than my air and hotel alone would have been.
I use their Hong Kong office as I am typically in Hong Kong for business and taking side trips into Chinese mainland for pleasure. All my bookings have been via e-mail and should you desire a contact at CTS China please post your e-mail address and I'll e-mail you the contact info. You can also go to their website and start from there (www.ctshk.com)
Jan 4th, 2004 | 08:26 PM
#9
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,778
Likes: 0
CTS in Hong Kong is a useful source of rail, bus, and boat tickets, but its other services are all heavily overpriced, from visa acquisition (one of the most expensive in Hong Kong) onwards. This company has a long history of rapacity, and has only in recent years decided to give refunds to people who complained about non-performance (a piece of information thought worthy of a news item in China Daily).
CTS (with CITS) is one of the main ground-handlers actually providing (and overcharging) foreign companies with the tours they many just then wrap-up with an air ticket and then sell-on to you under their own brand.
It's completely common to book a tour and end up as a tour group of one or two, whether you ask for a tailor-made itinerary or just buy off the shelf, and whether directly through CTS and cronies or through companies who are simply making arrangements with CTS on your behalf.
And the reason this is doable is that the mark-ups are so vast, it's still worth it to run the tour.
The prices may not look much in U.S. dollars, but they are way beyond what someone who deals locally will pay--sometime several multiples more.
Of course if you make a casual enquiry as to air prices and look simply at published hotel prices then the tour appears to be cheaper. But only the most incautious independent traveller, who absolutely insists on booking ahead from overseas, ever pays those prices. Things are rather skilfully presented so that the outsider perceives things that way. The CTS office is full of flyers showing slashed hotel rates being offered by them. But time and time again the same rates or often even better rates are available directly from the hotel, especially when booking in Hong Kong for the mainland.
CTS squeezes everyone it deals with dry. It will not take you to any restaurant which does not give it kick-backs; it will not take you to any hotel likewise. It will certainly not pass on any discount it obtains to you. And if you manage to tailor your tour away from shops and restaurants it favours, the cost will go up in other ways.
Again, I'm not arguing against taking tours of any kind. That is up to the individual traveller. I am arguing against the mistaken belief that organized travel in China is cheaper than independent travel. I'm sorry to be contrary, but I would in general suggest that CTS and CITS are the companies of which you should be most wary, and I don't like to see a blanket recommendation go unquestioned (although I'm not going to post this three times under different headings).
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
CTS (with CITS) is one of the main ground-handlers actually providing (and overcharging) foreign companies with the tours they many just then wrap-up with an air ticket and then sell-on to you under their own brand.
It's completely common to book a tour and end up as a tour group of one or two, whether you ask for a tailor-made itinerary or just buy off the shelf, and whether directly through CTS and cronies or through companies who are simply making arrangements with CTS on your behalf.
And the reason this is doable is that the mark-ups are so vast, it's still worth it to run the tour.
The prices may not look much in U.S. dollars, but they are way beyond what someone who deals locally will pay--sometime several multiples more.
Of course if you make a casual enquiry as to air prices and look simply at published hotel prices then the tour appears to be cheaper. But only the most incautious independent traveller, who absolutely insists on booking ahead from overseas, ever pays those prices. Things are rather skilfully presented so that the outsider perceives things that way. The CTS office is full of flyers showing slashed hotel rates being offered by them. But time and time again the same rates or often even better rates are available directly from the hotel, especially when booking in Hong Kong for the mainland.
CTS squeezes everyone it deals with dry. It will not take you to any restaurant which does not give it kick-backs; it will not take you to any hotel likewise. It will certainly not pass on any discount it obtains to you. And if you manage to tailor your tour away from shops and restaurants it favours, the cost will go up in other ways.
Again, I'm not arguing against taking tours of any kind. That is up to the individual traveller. I am arguing against the mistaken belief that organized travel in China is cheaper than independent travel. I'm sorry to be contrary, but I would in general suggest that CTS and CITS are the companies of which you should be most wary, and I don't like to see a blanket recommendation go unquestioned (although I'm not going to post this three times under different headings).
Peter N-H
http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html
Jan 4th, 2004 | 10:43 PM
#10
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 229
Likes: 0
Peter,
thanks for your input. I don't typically go for organized tours either, however my experience with CTS out of the Hong Kong office has been excellent.
However, maybe it also has something to do with the fact that I have 10 years of experience negotiating with Chinese and have establish a good working relationship with my HK contact.
I defer to your experience, however your assumption that I haven't figured out how to do more than a cursory spot check of rack rates and airfares isn't fair or accurate. I'm not comparing the prices I pay to US prices, I'm comparing them to direct hotel and airfares quoted in country.
With regard to kick backs, one way or the other most of the travel industry is getting something regardless of where you are. Some organizations are even so bold they call them commissions and write them into their contracts.
Yes, guides in China (and some other parts of the world) are getting a cut of what you buy in the stores and shops that they take you to. However, it appears to me that as this is common practice for the trade and in the area its up to the consumer to be heads up and not pay 40% too much for something just because a guide is involved.
I became aware of this on my very first trip to HK many years ago when among other things I asked how the guide made her income. When I book with CTS I remind my contact to let the guide know that I am not a shopper, but that I have the potential to be a good tipper if I am happy with my experience.
Clearly we have different experiences and therefore opinions of CTS and although I appreciate your warning in general, I'll stick with my HK contact.
thanks for your input. I don't typically go for organized tours either, however my experience with CTS out of the Hong Kong office has been excellent.
However, maybe it also has something to do with the fact that I have 10 years of experience negotiating with Chinese and have establish a good working relationship with my HK contact.
I defer to your experience, however your assumption that I haven't figured out how to do more than a cursory spot check of rack rates and airfares isn't fair or accurate. I'm not comparing the prices I pay to US prices, I'm comparing them to direct hotel and airfares quoted in country.
With regard to kick backs, one way or the other most of the travel industry is getting something regardless of where you are. Some organizations are even so bold they call them commissions and write them into their contracts.
Yes, guides in China (and some other parts of the world) are getting a cut of what you buy in the stores and shops that they take you to. However, it appears to me that as this is common practice for the trade and in the area its up to the consumer to be heads up and not pay 40% too much for something just because a guide is involved.
I became aware of this on my very first trip to HK many years ago when among other things I asked how the guide made her income. When I book with CTS I remind my contact to let the guide know that I am not a shopper, but that I have the potential to be a good tipper if I am happy with my experience.
Clearly we have different experiences and therefore opinions of CTS and although I appreciate your warning in general, I'll stick with my HK contact.
