Seema

We almost decided to travel to China with Laurus Travel next year. What really scares me is all those stops for shopping that some people mentioned here on this board. How do you deal with those stops if you are not interested in shopping? I rather spend this time vsiting different places. <BR>Anyone knows about shopping stops with Laurus Tours? Do they exisit?<BR>Are there any small tour groups (maximum 20 people)that don't waist time for shopping? <BR>Thank you

Rocco

Ah, the shopping trips!!! Those trips are what allows the tour company to sell the trips for far cheaper than you could put them together for yourself. (If you are not paying far less for this tour than it would cost to put together yourself, then you are paying far too much!!!).<BR>Anyhow, I won an auction on an internet auction website about a year and a half ago for a 17 day trip to Beijing, Shanghai and Hong Kong. I was amazed that for two people and a 15 night hotel stay in 3* hotels, including all airfare, tours and many meals, that I paid less than $2,500 (USD). The airfare alone would have cost me more! It was as if I got 15 nights hotel in nice and comfortable (but not luxurious) hotels and tours and meals for free! I have stayed at a couple of the top rated hotels in the world and these hotels definitely were nowhere in that class but they were 3* even by American standards.<BR>I spent the first half of the trip shopping like a madman with my wife and easily spent $2,500 during that time. Halfway through the trip, however, my wife and I ventured off on our own, or wandered next door to a different store and after telling the saleswoman that we were not with the group that was in that store, we were immediately given a 40% discount! We were told that the tour companies get a whopping 40% commission of the total sale and that the stupid little 10% discount card that the tour leader gives you is really only to identify you as part of that tour group so that they can tack on the extra 40% for the tour company!!!<BR>So, for the first $2,500 that we spent, $1,000 (40%) went right to the tour company. That alone probably paid for the hotels, tour guide and meals. <BR>Once we learned of this little scheme, we did all future shopping on the trip away from the group and we were delighted to see the prices drastically fall!!! Shopping in China is still reasonable with the group but is dirt cheap away from the group.<BR>I, again, will go with a group tour in the next couple years back to China to buy a couple nice silk rugs and other goods, but only to take advantage of their artificially low priced travel packages. I will not do ANY shopping with the group and will probably skip out on at least one full day in each city to shop for myself. I suggest anybody going on such a group tour do the same to save a tremendous amount of money.

Peter N-H

I'm delighted to see Rocco's post warning about the shopping rip-offs. Remarks I've previously made here about the cupidity and unreliability of guides in the matter of shopping have sometimes been greeted with scepticism. As I've said before, so great are the rip-offs and backhanders that some tour companies now charge guides for the pleasure of taking out groups, rather than employing them to do so.<BR><BR>And it's not unusual for 10 to 15 times the price which might be acceptable to be asked, so a 40% 'discount' should only be the starting point for some serious hard bargaining.<BR><BR>Laurus, like all other foreign travel companies (for the time being) will be using one of a limited number of official ground-handling companies to do all the arrangements, and will not be allowed to own or contract transport etc. itself. To a large degree, therefore, it doesn't really make all that much difference who you go with, but certainly, as Rocco suggests, the cheaper the tour, the more emphasis will be placed on opportunities to separate you from your cash. <BR><BR>Why not contact Laurus and ask them the hard question (and let us know if they'll give you an answer)? But don't forget that if your tour visits a major site with gift shops attached it's hard for the tour company to know that you have been herded in there--it need not be scheduled as a separate event.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html<BR><BR>

Seema

Thank you both<BR><BR>Rocco, this is what I was talking about. You are giving me tips on how to save when shopping but I am not interested in shopping at all.<BR>I DO NOT want to shop, I want to visit all places that I always wanted to visit in China and focus on history and culture.<BR><BR>Peter, I wish my husband and I could do independent tour. <BR>I will call Laurus and post their answer here. However, I was hoppping to hear about personal experience from those who recommended this company. There were many posters who traveled with Laurus.

joe

On a trip to China we were at a "tea pot factory" and many in our group were going nuts buying 3, 4, even 8 tea pots. Our national guide knew that I did not shop so we were standing at the door. He looked out at the people buying and said to me, "You people nuts!" I laughingly agreed.

Seema

I don't think I will be able to cope with watching others shopping. <BR><BR>I think we better start thinking about our own independent trip<BR><BR>Any ideas where to start? What guidebooks to get?<BR><BR>Thank you all. You help me a lot

Patty

You may want to get Frommer's China - it lists and gives information on 50 areas/sights that you might want to visit. The information is general, but it's a good place to start and get ideas.

carol

When the bus stops at the shopping areas you can just stay on it and read your guide books. Or you can just sit outside and people-watch. It seems sort of silly to pass up a good, inexpensive tour just because you don't want to shop. Nobody forces you to buy anything - or even to go into the shops.

Peter N-H

But what's the point in buying something, Carol, just because it's cheap, if in fact you don't want it? "Elephants are half-price today. Let's buy ten!"<BR><BR>Tens of thousands of people travel to China entirely independently every year, Seema, and without a word of Mandarin or any advance booking. You do have to be a little self-reliant, although it's possible to buy short half-day and one-day tours as you go, and to use agents to buy air tickets and train tickets for you, although there's no need.<BR><BR>I would disagree with the recommendation of Frommer's '50 Most' since the practical information in it is very limited indeed and severely in need of updating, as are the descriptions of sights. There's a new updated edition due out next year. <BR><BR>If you know which cities you want to visit, then look for city guides to those places. If not, then you need a single volume China guide (covering a lot more than 50 places) with lots of up-to-date practical information, and clear opinions and recommendations on what's worth doing and what's not. Generally speaking, the more accurate and fulsome the practical information, the less accurate and less well-written the cultural, historical, and general descriptive material. You might want two books.<BR><BR>I must admit I don't think it's right directly to recommend Fodor's competitors on a site the company hosts, and I'm not familiar their guides or their methodology, so I can't comment on them. I'd just advise avoiding Lonely Planet and Let's Go as simply too inaccurate and trivial. The budget travel guides do tend to cater more for those who do it themselves, however, than middle-market guides which mostly tend to assume you'll want everything done for you, so they don't have to tell you how.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

ill

I like your name. Is that an offer for us all?

mm

Hi Seema,<BR>I'm planning a trip to china too. After I figured out where i wanted to go (thanks to our wonderful public library) I started scouring the web for travel agencies in hong kong (they all have websites in english). According to a friend in China tours from HK are very small and professional. Even if you won't be traveling thru HK, i'm sure they can accomodate you. Of course you may have to get the airfare yourself. (united has been offering some amazing deals: RT direct! to HK or Shanghai for &lt; $700) I've also found some very promising travel agencies in Bejing. However, i get the feeling they don't want my buisness. I've emailed several times and even called one, but i've yet to recieve a response. <BR>As i have my flight already, I'm just going to plan a 2-3 day tour in just one area. Hopefully, I'll get some tips from fellow travellers, or the tour guide. Then i'll be able to make a more informed decision as to how i should spend the rest of my time there. Dragon Air doesn't penalize you for one-way tickets. <BR>oh, you might try the Dragon Air website. They have some very reasonable tours.<BR>Good Luck!

w

mm<BR><BR>You really don't need a group tour at all. Each of your hotels can arrange for you a car and official tourist guide (trained and employed by the government). You can reserve this in advance by contacting the hotels. In this way your tour can be customized for your individual tastes; stop where you want, eat where you want, shop (or not) where you want, change your mind when you want, and make some good friends along the way. It is really perfect.

Peter N-H

'Really perfect', possibly, but 'perfectly expensive', too, and still you need to beware of being guided into certain shops and restaurants. Hotels in China can charge as much as Y1500 for a car and driver when you can negotiate the same thing for Y300 or less on the street. <BR><BR>Booking anything in hotels ahead from abroad will unnecessarily damage your wallet, and this should only be done under exceptional circumstances (you don't want to think for the first couple of nights after you arrive, for instance, or you are arriving during a major public holiday period).<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

w

Peter <BR><BR>You are exactly correct but most first time travellers will get themselves into more trouble that it is worth to do as you suggest. As you live in China it would be easy for you. I think that mm might find it to be more difficult. Of course, in Beijing and Shanghai they can just use taxis and their trusty Fodors Guidebook.

Patty

If you go with a tour, there will be shopping stops regardless of whether your tour originates in the U.S., Hong Kong, Beijing, or Shanghai. Booking a tour with a travel agency in China won't make any difference. The idea is to get away from the group tours.

Patty

Peter is right about the cost savings of negotiating directly with a taxi for a day trip vs. arranging it thru your hotel. However, w also makes a very good point in that it really depends on the comfort level of the individual traveler. You won't find English speaking taxi drivers on the street but the hotel (or a travel agency/tour operator) can arrange an English speaking guide if you feel that this is preferable. Only you can decide if the cost difference is worthwhile.

Sandra

There is probably no group tour that can completely avoid shopping stops. The key is moderation and being warned of the inflated prices. Carol made a good point.

Peter N-H

Thousands of first-time travellers do do as I suggest every year, so it seems it can be done. If, as is admitted, it can be done in Beijing and Shanghai, I'm slightly at a loss to see why it couldn't be done anywhere else. It is done elsewhere, all the time, by many people.<BR><BR>Of course, there are those who have the desire for minimum fuss at all costs, and there are those who lack the gumption to manage on their own. Others are easily dismayed by squalor and minor discomfort, and prefer it organised out of their way. But if I understand Seema's original posting correctly, then she is used to travelling independently, and this no harder in China than it is in other third world countries, and it's easier than many.<BR><BR>Oddly enough, I was once a first-time traveller to China, too, and that was in the days when it really was hard.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html

Just Wondering

Do you think one day Patty will make a posting which doesn't just tell us whether she agrees with what other people said and then repeats it?

Peter N-H

To engage a guide through a hotel would be unnecessarily expensive, and even the most ditzy guide book is far more authoritative. <BR><BR>Guides in China rarely have any real idea of their own history, and are usually more concerned to purvey what pleases you, and what will make China look best, in the full knowledge that you will assume they know what they are talking about. <BR><BR>Guides will tell you that the Great Wall is the longest man-made structure in the world (actually that's a dog fence in Australia), that it can be seen from the moon (don't be silly), that the Kangxi and Qianlong emperors were the greatest Chinese emperors (they were Manchus not Chinese), that a waterfall hidden in the Yunnan countryside is the third largest in the world (it's not even the biggest in China), that the stone stelae you see everywhere are set in the backs of stone turtles (actually they're a primitive dragon called a bixi--have a look at the claws and teeth), and that's just a few examples I've heard. <BR><BR>Furthermore they just tend to trot you round the same old sites merely reinforcing your idea of what China is, rather than opening them to the reality. Don't expect a guide to know much at all about what's off his or her usual beat. Want to see an insect market, where birds are trained to do tricks, where old men gather to fly home-made kites, a quiet backstreet temple rather than a main one, or where local people go to buy silk rather than the tourist markets? A guide isn't going to be much help, and it seems to me that by hiring one you lose much of the benefit of independent travel, and forgo the benefit of occasional casual encounters with ordinary Chinese who can speak English. And then you once again open yourself, should you want to do at least a little shopping, to the possibility of being taken to the wrong place and given the wrong advice.<BR><BR>A book, a map, a little help from English speakers at the hotel desk, and a little common sense is all that's needed to get around China.<BR><BR>Peter N-H<BR>http://members.axion.net/~pnh/China.html