filmwill

But Nozomi trains aren't possible for JR passes, right? I think we have no choice BUT to get a JR pass if we're doing all this train travel.

If we do get the pass we'd have to stick with the recommended

Your proposed routing (Hikari train to Nagoya and then Nozomi train to Hiroshima) leaves Hakone at 8:30 AM and gets us in at 1:30 PM. The JR-qualified (non Nozomi) routing would have us take a Kodama train to Yokohama and then a Hikari to Osaka and finally a Sakura to Hiroshima...and would have us leave Hakone at 8:15 AM and get in at 2:30 PM.

Maybe I'm also overestimating the time I need to see the Peace Park. Am I short-changing myself if we get in at 2:30 PM, dump stuff at the hotel and enjoy the rest of the afternoon seeing the Peace Park and Museum and then having a nice dinner?

I'd prefer to keep Kyoto at the end if possible. I know, I'm a sentimentalist...but I have this vision of Kyoto and its magic and I'd really like that to be our last memory of Japan on our first trip there.

filmwill

...and thanks for the hotel reccos, mrwunrfl!

mrwunrfl

Yes, am pretty sure that you want to use a JR Pass, but offered the Nozomi info as a potential time saver disregarding cost.

I believe that the museum closes at 6PM.

Sunset is at 5:04 PM in Hiroshima on the 19th.

filmwill

Somewhat related question: why time can you normally check into ryokan? This sort of ties into not only when we'd check in at Miyajima but also how much quality time we have in the onsen at ryokan in Hakone.

mrwunrfl

How are you figuring that travel time?

At hyperdia, I toggle off Nozomi, use 8:15 as departure time, Hakone-Yumoto as departure and Hiroshima as destination the first result (shortest travel time) departs at 9:40.

That is the Tozan train followed by a Hikari from Odawara (without backtracking to Shin-Yokohama) that goes to Shin-Osaka and then a Sakura arriving 2:28.

Or maybe you are searching with From=GORA. In that case, searching for departure time of 8:15 shows the first result as departing Gora at 8:50.

I wonder what the taxi time and fare would be from Gora to Odawara.

DonTopaz

Most ryokans ask you to check in between 3 and 5 or 6 pm. If you arrive earlier, most will hold your luggage until check-in time. Check out time is usually 10 or 11am. When you check in, you'll typically set the time for dinner (usually between 6:00 and 7:30).

(I'm not a fan of staying only one night in a ryokan, in large part because of the schedule rigidity. For me, staying just one night really doesn't give you much of a chance to relax, and that's the special aspect of a nice ryokan.)

filmwill

Totally hear you, Don. What's difficult for me to fathom, on the flipside, is having 2 meals in a row like that. It's just way too much--not to mention the cost.

DonTopaz

For a less restrictive/regimented experience, do consider KimJapan's suggestion of Hoshinoya. This is much more of a modern environment, and I find it a more relaxed environment than a traditional ryokan.

(Though I've stayed only at Hoshinoya in Karuizawa rather than the one just outside Kyoto. Hoshinoya Karuizawa is a terrific place if you're looking for an upscale getaway with great onsen, hiking trails, and a gorgeous setting. Karuizawa is about an hour train ride from Tokyo.)

KimJapan

If you are spending the money to stay at Gora Kadan I would strongly recommend not having an early departure but instead relax, enjoy another bath, a leisurely breakfast, even two nights to properly enjoy the ryokan and see something of Hakone. A single night is ok if you don't want to sightsee but there is a lot. Putting Kyoto ahead of Hiroshima would let you spend more time in Hakone.

KimJapan

Also to note, ryokan at the level of Gora Kada will never serve you the same meal both nights if you stay for two nights. Their objective is to make you happy, ecstatic actually, and they will very carefully orchestrate the meals to both allow their chef to show off skill but also to match your taste and appetite. They will ask you if there are things you can't eat, and if you want to have a small meal on one night all you need to do is say so and they will do that. They really aim to please!

hawaiiantraveler

I agree with KimJapan that if you are staying at Gora Kadan(I am totally jealous btw)then I wouldn't think of leaving the doors until after 9 am. Most places have you check out by 10 but GK may be 11.

You would have to take the public train from Gora to Odawara and transfer to the shinkansen to get to Hiroshima. Gora Kadan is very close to the Gora station btw.... maybe a 5 minute walk. I have done this commute several ways so I can tell you that taking the train system can take as little as one hour if you make the next connection in Hakone-Yumoto but I have also missed that connection due to a line of people already being there for the next train and having to wait 20 minutes for the next one. We have also taxied from the Hyatt in Gora to the JR Odawara station in the morning. That ride cost us a little more than ¥7000 and took less than 25 minutes.

Either way, I see you not getting into Hiroshima now until 3:30 or maybe 4:30 so and you would be limited to the shopping venues near the PP and the sights around the station for an evening. You can do the PP in the morning if you like and then head over to Miyajima. You will have plenty of time. The PP would take 2hours at the most unless you really slow down and linger....then 2 1/2 hours. You can also take a private ferry from the river next at the Peace Park to get directly to Miyajima from there. It runs daily and hours are on the Japan Guide but its also easy to get back to the JR station and catch the local to JR Miyajimaguchi station and take the free JR ferry(with your JR pass) over:

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3454.html

You are staying at Momijiso which is the total opposite of Gora Kadan so you can drop your bags off there when you get to the island in the early afternoon and continue on to explore the island and Mt Misen. Momijiso is on the trail up/down from Mt Misen gondola so very easy to get back to after your explorations. Miyajima town is best seen after the ferry leaves at 5:00 anyways taking the last day tourists away. Then you can explore the little town by yourselves and the few ryokan guests staying on the island overnight. All of this is located within a 10-15 minute walk so the island's sights are within a very small area.

If I had the option of giving up time in Hiroshima or Kyoto, I would always pick giving up time in Hiroshima.....not even close for me.

More thoughts later

Aloha!

mrwunrfl

Committing to two expensive kaiseki meals on consecutive nights might be a bit much for me and I like kaiseki dinners. Also, one night in a remote location that is dead at night is ok but I would have no interest in a second unless my regular go-to-sleep time was 8PM (granted YMMV if traveling as a couple).

One way to make your itinerary work better is to travel later in the day (though this has a luggage logistics issue).

Nov 18 Hakone (Gora Kadan)
leave Tokyo early, sightsee Hakone that day, night in Gora

Nov 19 Hiroshima (Hotel TBD)
easy morning have some more time for Hakone perhaps, travel to Hiroshima in the afternoon or evening (e.g. departing Odawara as late as 6PM and arriving Hiroshima at 10:36 PM or departing Gora at noon allows you to spend an evening in Hiroshima).

Nov 20 Miyajima (Momiji-so)
Morning and early afternoon sightseeing in Hiroshima, travel to Miyajima getting to Momijiso before dark.

Nov 21 sightsee Miyajima, leave for Kyoto late afternoon.

Besides the ferry between Miyajima and Miyajimaguchi you can also sail between Miyajima and Hiroshima.
http://www.setonaikaikisen.co.jp/jikoku/kousoku.htm

The 5PM departure from Miyajima to Hiroshima might be particularly scenic as it would be at sunset (I have not been on that boat but I took the hydrofoil from Matsuyama to Hiroshima at sunset and it was gorgeous). From the Hiroshima port you just take a streetcar.

mrwunrfl

I see ht had some similar thoughts as I was writing.

One more thought to free up time earlier: you can skip Osaka completely or visit there from Kyoto. Easy enough to go there for dinner if you really want to and don't mind the travel time. It is only 28 minutes from Kyoto to Osaka station on a JR "rapid" train.

filmwill

Thanks guys. We're definitely getting SO close to finalizing this.

I think I've narrowed down two options based on your feedback. I agree, two nights of kaiseki is just way too much. Never mind the fact that I don't even think we can afford Gora Kadan (just got a quote and my morning Cherrios almost came out my nose) -- so looking at Hakone-Ginyu as a backup. But even there, we just can't afford 2 nights.

We'd go to Hakone very early that morning, tour around until the afternoon, spend the afternoon in the hot springs, have dinner, then spend the next morning bathing and eating again before heading out.

So we either go to Hiroshima and just spend the night there and tour the PP in the morning before heading to Miyajima (which, honestly, is fine with me because I have no interest in Hiroshima other than the PP and the museum. I don't need another big city on our tour to tell you the truth.)

Option 2 is we go to Osaka from Hakone. Spend the late afternoon and evening there (and get our foodie craze on then instead of at the end of the trip), head to Hiroshima from there and then just have our final night in Kyoto.

Either works, really. I guess we just need to figure out what's more important to us.

hawaiiantraveler

Mrwunrfl is right when saying luggage logistics could be an issue unless you utilize the takuhaibin luggage forwarding services I know you've seen mentioned here before. You won't need any clothes at Gora Kadan

They will provide your yukata for wear on the property. In fact they will provide you all toiletries and such. Lots of Japanese locals just take a backpack or one small rollie per couple. You can send your bigger bags to meet you at your Hiroshima hotel then send it to Kyoto hotel from there traveling lightly again through Miyajima. Cheap when you figure in the convenience level of traveling lightly when your really not. One of the pleasures of traveling in Japan.

It's great to have differing yet knowledgeable opinions on this forum and that's what I love about it. You get all the facts then get to figure which way to go. We on the other hand,as a couple would kill for two nights at Gora Kadan. We have been to many ryokan and have stayed both one and two nights. I have no problem being pampered for two days in a row. I fit into the roll of daimyo and shogun very well. I love being pampered and catered to then scrubbed and cleaned and bathed then long soaks in hot springs under the stars with your significant other then start all over again. I must have been real good in a past life is the feeling I always get on that second ryokan night.....

I agree that you can do a day trip to Osaka. Linda and I have even gone to dinner in Osaka from our Hyatt Kyoto hotel by train. Easier and more convenient than you would think.

Aloha!

DonTopaz

This sounds like such a wonderful trip, and I'd guess that one of the last things you'd want is the stress of having to rush. Have you considered skipping Hiroshima/Miyajima on this trip? I'd agree that H/M are surely wirth a visit, but it might be worth it to compare side-by-side itineraries -- with and without the Hiroshima part. Neither Japan nor Hiroshima are going anywhere and would be there for another time.

When I spoke of staying 2 nights, I didn't realize you were thinking of Gora Kadan. 2 people for 2 nights -- oy! I think that GK may actually be closer to the next-to-last stop on the train to Gora (though still an easy enough walk from the Gora stop, as well). Be sure to save some time if at all possible for the wonderful outdoor sculpture park/museum that's just down the street from Gora Kadan.

One thing that Peter and I agree on is that the Hyatt in Gora is a terrific place to stay, if you decide to save the splurge for somewhere else (or if you wanted to stay multiple nights in Hakone, but only 1 at a ryokan). They have a wonderfully cozy atrium area with a sort of contemporary faux fireplace, and many of the guests will hang out there for late afternoon drinks/snacks. Hyatt has some attributes of a more traditional Japanese lodging -- you can wear your yukata everywhere in the hotel, and it's got a very nice onsen -- and it's a welcoming place.

KimJapan

Yes, the Hyatt in Hakone is very nice and a great place to stay, especially if you want to focus on the sights of Hakone rather than getting the most out of the ryokan stay. When you spend big money on a ryokan, at least for me, I really want to get all I can out of the stay and use all of the facilities so ryokan stays don't really combine with sightseeing for me - especially if it's just one night.

Let me ask you...are you choosing Hakone because you have interest in Hakone or because of the ryokan? This could help you decide where to stay - and even if to go there at all.

There is no shortage of amazing onsen ryokan in Japan, and many of them have easier access than Hakone and you might consider one of them if your motivation for visiting Hakone is the ryokan. Moot though if you want to see Hakone more than you care about where you stay.

filmwill

Let me preface by saying Gora is out. We can't afford it. Hakone Ginyu is the 2nd runner up but I honestly have no idea how to even find out a price from them--or how to contact them. Apparently (even though they advertise them) Japanese Guest Houses.com now said that the ryokan doesn't use them anymore. And I can't find an email address on their website -- and Japanican.com doesn't allow you to book anything past June. A bit frustrating...

So that said...

Kim, it's not necessarily one way or the other. I mean, the idea of being that close to Mount Fuji and the romance of getting to Hakone on the various trains, cable cars and ropeway...in addition to the beautiful lake, etc. all seem like draws. But, yes, part of the draw was the ryokan itself.

But honestly, don't I face the same issue with WHEREVER I go after Tokyo? Our planned itinerary doesn't exactly allow for me to go somewhere even further away (such as Beniya Mukayu or Arima Onsen) that next day. I don't want to lose another day in transit. At least with Hakone, we're near Tokyo (only an hour or so away) and we get to enjoy that day...as opposed to traveling a few hours via train and then trying to salvage a half-day somewhere random.

filmwill

What are everyone's thoughts on Izu as a potential onsen stop post-Tokyo? There's one place in particular I have my eye on...it's beautiful. But hot damn...another expensive one!

hawaiiantraveler

Hmmmm time is precious on that first trip isn't it?

Izu is beautiful. Truly scenic by train down the coast or by rental car if you have time. It's the place Tokyoites have been going to for long weekends for literally centuries. I remember reading somewhere that it was the warm Japan current flowing outside that part of the ocean that keeps the peninsula's climate and water warmer year round or something of the sort. You know me, into the weather....

Yes you can get to Narita comfortably for a flight home if your flights not too early in the day. Even from Kawazu there are direct trains in the mornings bound directly to Shinegawa and Tokyo where you can transfer to the next NEx train bound for NRT.

IIRC we paid a small supplement fee maybe ¥600 for the private line portion of the track that the JR train traveled on within Izu.

Pick your wish list with all its wishes and we'll see if it can work. If it can then it can if no can then no can, wait till next time.

But I'm sure someone here will figure it out for you

Aloha!