Craig

Sorry you won't be there when we and other fodorites are, but maybe the foliage will be better for you. We are also on that ITM coach flight to NRT before flying biz to IAD and on to Hartford.

KimJapan

I usually recommend staying in ryokan outside of cities for the onsen, with one exception - Hoshinoya Kyoto in Arashiyama. It will be expensive but it is magic. Skimp everywhere else if you must even. Or, kinder to your wallet, between Kyoto and Kanazawa, Beniya Mukayu. Wonderful hosts and fantastic food. In Tokyo, the oversupply of luxury hotels keeps the price around ¥40,000-¥50,000/night - same as Peninsula Bangkok these days. Business hotel chains like Toyoko Inn and APA are under ¥10,000/night - room is tiny but clean. Come to Kanazawa and I can get you into a restored machiya in a geisha district - you get the whole house.

lcuy

Bill, November is a great month in Japan, and you cannot go wrong where ever you go. It's all like Narita town, but better!

filmwill

I don't know if any of you remember but we did actually have a big Japan trip completely planned for April 2011, but had to cancel at the last minute because of the devastating earthquake and tsunami. It's nice that we'll finally get the chance to take that trip now, but, admittedly, I do forget quite a bit of the details of that trip--we had everything planned and booked, including ryokans.

I can't remember if the price of ryokans (say $600/night, per rkkwan's experience) typically is per person per night (including food.) I'm guessing so. If that is the case, then is it logical to say 1 ryokan for 1 night is enough? That seems logical to me...maybe 2 max but even that might be pushing it. I love the idea of kaiseki meals, but I can't imagine being able to stomach (or afford) more than 1 in 10 nights...especially 2 nights in a row.

I guess I really need to get my itinerary in a row here so I can hone in on where to book a ryokan.

Thinking something like this:

Nov 15 Arrive Tokyo @ 11AM
Nov 16 Tokyo
Nov 17 Tokyo
Nov 18 Hiroshima
Nov 19 Miyajima
Nov 20 Miyajima
Nov 21 Kyoto
Nov 22 Kyoto
Nov 23 Kyoto / Nara?
Nov 24 Kyoto
Nov 25 Osaka ?
Nov 26 Osaka / Depart for LAX @ 2:30 PM

Osaka definitely seems crazy and interesting -- especially for the food angle. But considering that we're leaving at 2:30 from our Osaka our last day, I figure we'd have to overnight there to really get a feel for it. Mostly, I want to make sure we're in Kyoto long enough.

mrwunrfl

That is a good itinerary but I would probably move Hiroshima/Miyajima to after Kyoto.

One reason is travel time: Tokyo to Kyoto is 2.5 to 3 hours by JR. Kyoto to Hiroshima is about 2 hours. Tokyo to Hiroshima then is about 5 hours. I try to keep rail travel time to 4 hours or less, but there is a benefit to getting that all done at once.

The other reason is for the fall colors. Around the 18th would be great timing for Kyoto. And then the colors would be closer to peak after that on Miyajima (22nd, 23rd) as it is south of Kyoto.

You are right that it is not necessary (or desirable to me) to stay 2 consecutive nights in one ryokan. Enjoy one night and meal in a ryokan where the ryokan is the destination.

I would make the same general recommendation as KimJapan about staying at a ryokan that is outside of a city and preferrably in an onsen town.

Two nights on Miyajima is one too many IMHO, esp considering that you will be traveling there from Hiroshima.

You don't really have to stay in Osaka the night before your flight. You can get a bus from Kyoto station (and other Kyoto locations, I think) to Itami airport and it takes just under an hour.

Definitely put Meiji Jingu on your plan for Tokyo on the 17th (or 16th as second choice).

AskOksena

Warm greetings Bill, from Hong Kong, and congratulations on your new Asian adventure. I do wish to thank you for spending time in our fine home of Singapore during your recent Burmese / Thailand journey. (And, if memory serves correct, some of your flights were with my all-time favourite carrier, Singapore Airlines; well done.)

You will have so much fun in the land of the rising sun. At present, I don't travel to Tokyo for meetings nearly as much as preferred (perhaps next month), but every trip has been enjoyable and rather efficient.

Concerning your flights, I see I'm a bit late in doing my usual suggestion of beloved Singapore Airlines; however, your current flights do appear quite adequate. However, should your circumstances change, SIA currently offers LAX-NRT service with SQ11 via those A380s. Late last week, I had the privilege of flying SQ1 J (SFO-HKG) for work, and that A380 trans-pac on the upper deck was delightfully serene. Perhaps in the near future for you; would be honoured to offer SIA seating and dining suggestions.

Noticed on your profile page that the Peninsula Bangkok is one of your favourites (as is for yours truly). Well, can highly and personally vouch for her Tokyo-based sister. (And I do believe the esteemed KimJapan has also stayed at the property.) And, the Park Hyatt is another special place. (And, for what it's worth, have also enjoyed business travel overnights at the Radisson in Narita; over the years, that property has played host to various airline crews.)

Concerning Kyoto, I am going to give a heartfelt and long-running personal and family thanks to a fine shop called Kita Antiques (256 Umemoto-Cho, Higashiyama-Ku); proprietor, the wondrous Mr. Kita. Back in the 1950s, two beloved and departed ancestors lived in Kyoto; the wife was a rather refined and well-to-do shopaholic. Some of her numerous purchases were from the elder Mr. Kita. (She also helped care for one of the Kita's children; they developed a close bond.) Recently, a relative informed that a '50s-era photo of this lovely woman can still be found inside the shop. (There are a few other family-Kita tales for another time.) Our humble home in Singapore contains some exquisite art she brought back from Japan ~ 60 years ago. I love Kyoto.

Now, the following will not apply to your upcoming trip, but my all-time cherished Japanese moment occurred 20+ years ago, ascending to the summit of Mt. Fuji. July, with a full moon; memorable. (Then, I've always loved all things pertaining to mountains. One of these years, will get away from work long enough to finally get down to Antarctica for some climbing.)

I'll have more later, as some Sunday Hong Kong errands beckon. Savour your planning, Bill, and all the best to you and all,

macintosh (robert)


... Singapore Girl, You're a Great Way to Fly ...

mrwunrfl

So, what I am suggesting is:
3 nights Tokyo
4 nights Kyoto
1 night Hiroshima
1 night Miyajima
2 nights Osaka

Leave Kyoto in the morning spend most of the day and the night in Hiroshima. Next morning go to Miyajima and spend the night then have much of the next day to spend on Miyajima, traveling to Osaka in the evening or late afternoon. Followed by a full day in Osaka before your departure.

filmwill

mrwunrfl, I thought about that--but HT's suggestions of going straight out to the southernmost point and working back seemed to make more sense than a zigzag (and the idea of ending in Kyoto seems like it would leave a lasting memory.) But your suggestion definitely is making me think about that option as well.

The big unknown is Koyasan or not. Back in the last Japan trip planning it was included as a destination for us, but I remember, it was quite difficult to get to and, even back then, I wondered if it was going to be worth it. I remember originally looking at those pictures of it online and thinking how beautiful the forest and the cemetery looked with the mist rising, etc and of course the idea of staying in a monastery is so unique...but even on our layover in Narita town, I saw similar scenery (although admittedly not nestled up in the mountains.) Point is: I wonder if it's one of those 2nd or 3rd trip to Japan destinations -- or one for those who have more days to spend. I definitely want a mix of big city and small and intimate towns.

As far as ryokans with onsen go, where is the best candidate of the cities I'm planning to visit? Miyajima seems more a candidate, but if I recall there aren't any "WOW" ryokans there. I'm guessing I'm going to find a bit more of that near Kyoto.

And when we say 'splurge' exactly how much are we talking? I know ryokan -- even moderate ones -- can be expensive once food is factored in. So, wondering how much the higher end/more posh ones can actually be.

Sorry--I know I have a million questions.

filmwill

Mr. Macintosh,

As always, a great pleasure to hear from you.

We did, indeed, fly your cherished carrier of choice (from Beijing to Singapore)...and it was a true delight. Everything I expected...and then some. The service really did exceed all my expectations. I felt truly taken care of and I can't even tell you the last time I flew and someone called me Mr. Filmwill. It really was a special flight. Only wish it had lasted longer!

As you may have noted, we're on Star Alliance award tickets...and your beloved SQ doesn't release any award seats on their A380s. So, as much as I would've killed to experience that, it's just not an option. But, as you say, I think we've got a pretty good backup plan.

Thanks for the hotel info for Tokyo. We'll see how far Amex Rewards points get me. I have a feeling they got me a lot further in Singapore than they will in Tokyo from what little research I've done so far.

Smeagol

So, did I miss it, have you booked the flights?

mrwunrfl

Take a look at the webpage at the link I gave above. There is a list of price ranges and variables that determine prices. You can have an authentic ryokan experience, as KimJapan likes to call it, at inns in each range. There are some good links at the bottom of the page.

Here is a nice moderate priced ryokan on Miyajima:
http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/d...a/momijiso.htm

I've been to Japan eight times and have not yet visited Koyasan. I think getting there would be part of the fun.

For an onsen visit or onsen ryokan stay on your route you can consider Hakone. Also Atami. Both in the Tokyo area. Arima Onsen is near Osaka. I think ht visited/stayed in another onsen town in that region.

hawaiiantraveler

Thank you all for the good wishes!!!

You can stay in Kyoto till the last day. Kyoto is a short trip to KIX and Osaka can be a day trip.

You can train, taxi or helicopter to KIX from Kyoto if you want. Most take the JR Haruka Express train or the limo bus service. Hit the option at the top left of the page for the To/From Kansai/Kyoto option.

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2363.html

there is also MK Taxi service which we have used with delight if you prefer:

http://www.mk-group.co.jp/english/

We are a couple who prefers to be at a ryokan with onsen outside of a major city and in the countryside with natural beauty around you. As mrwunrfl correctly states a ryokan stay need not be too expensive although there are many that are. Tsurunoyu in Northern Tohoku would be very modest in cost but you have to book this place almost a year in advance. For you and David I see in a place in Gora(Hakone) like this one we still only dream of going to

http://www.hakoneginyu.co.jp/english/main.html

or one night here in the same general area

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/d...e/hougetsu.htm

or if you want a little hiking, Linda and I spent a couple of nights here on the Izu peninsula one fall season. Fabulous area and scenery stuck in the hills next to a river with seven waterfalls. There are natural hot spring baths along the river. What more can you ask for?

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/d...ka/amagiso.htm

Closer to Kyoto you may choose an overnight in Kinosaki Onsen and one of their many ryokan in town especially if you favor crab on your dinner menu. Arima onsen is much closer to Kyoto but I favor Kinosaki Onsen.

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/d...saki/index.htm

http://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/db/arima/index.htm

In Kyoto whatever your plans are make sure to make at least a day visit the town of Arashiyama. If you take KimJapan's suggestion of the ryokan there and visit the town at the same time you may be doing the two birds with one stone thing....

http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e3912.html

For cheaper places to stay along with the ryokans or 5 star venues you should probably check into some of these at a couple of your stops along the way to save some money. Hiroshima, Tokyo and Kyoto all have these chains in good locations that are clean, cheap but small. We have stayed in all of these and like the comfort inn, toyoko and especially the dormy inn chains with the free onsite onsen-like baths. When you are a couple and staying in one of these business hotels ALWAYS ORDER THE TWIN ROOM. NEVER order a double room. Double rooms will have one small double bed and that's it where the two beds with give you a little more space and comfort.....not much


http://www.toyoko-inn.com/eng/

http://www.comfortinn.com/sitemap-japan-JP

http://www.sunroute.jp/english/index.html

http://www.japanican.com/hotels/list.aspx?ty=dormyinn

In ten trips to Japan we have still to do a trip to Koyasan. I agree with mrwunrfl though that the trip up and down would be a highlight and not anything daunting. Transport, especially by train is a treat in Japan and not to be missed. I can imagine the timing and pride the conductors on the various transport take in getting you to the next stop on time so you can catch your next leg in comfort and without worry. Trust me about this....you will see when you get there.

Unless you want reservations in a fabulously cherished ryokan or something it is actually a little early for any good pricing on hotels in November. Most Japanese hotel sites don't even give out prices until six months in advance and business hotels might not give them out until three months in advance. That said, you should look for deals in November to start coming out after the spring rush of tourists in April. If you think of anything else, fire away!

Aloha!

hawaiiantraveler

OOooops, just saw that your leaving from Itami not KIX which is even better because its closer to Kyoto. Just hit that Itami/Kyoto button

Aloha!

filmwill

Wow, that's a ton to digest, HT. Thank you so very much.

Here's something that I still am struggling with. I get that we don't want to do a ryokan for 2 nights in a row, but does that mean more than 1 ryokan in the whole trip might also be too much? My other half is having a hard time digesting 2 ryokan on this trip...mostly because I think he thinks about price and probably struggles with the same misconceptions I do.

Looking at the JGH site, it seems that not all ryokan require one to book the dinner and/or breakfast service. That's great--but I can't imagine that in some of these locations that you would have any other meal options in the area (especially outside of major cities.)

Right now, planning on hotels for Tokyo, Hiroshima and Kyoto. Considering ryokan for Hakone and Miyajima...but anything more than that seems like it might be overkill.

KimJapan

Consider getting out of the cities and off the beaten path. Flatt's is one of our favorites. Great food, welcoming hosts who love to chat, beautiful country location in Noto. Under ¥16,000 per person per night with an amazing dinner ad breakfast included. Lovely.

Ryokan that don't serve or make dinner optional are more or less guesthouses. The dinner is usually the star of the show so to not have it, well, it's like having no show at all.

Get out of the cities and off the main drag and prices are more in line with true value.

KimJapan

I meant to include this. http://m.washingtonpost.com/lifestyl...c_story_1.html

Craig

I hadn't seen that article, Kim. Thanks for posting.

Bill, we reserved a night at Flatt's in October - planning to rent a car and explore the area (Noto Peninsula)...

KimJapan

The article is new in the last few weeks. They really enjoyed Flatt's. They also stayed at Kikunoya!

hawaiiantraveler

Bill
Pick one night this trip and try a ryokan out in the country somewhere. The Hakone area for you sounds the easiest with many good options. Arima onsen is probably your second easiest option on your present itinerary. An authentic hot springs bath would be a must for me. You can tell the ones with real hot springs baths that have the red circles sign on them on the JGH site. There are many other sites with ryokans available and the best are if you can read Japanese and get the "local" pricing but I always mention the JGH site because they are easy to use for English speaking foreigners and give good service for the first time visitors. Giving too many places like I did above thread I agree tends to overwhelm the first(or second) time visitor.

I like the idea of Flatt's and see it as a viable option. Italian/Japanese.....my two favorite worlds, how can it go wrong?

With Kim's reco I personally wouldn't hesitate for a minute but for a first ryokan experience you can either dull the experience down to make it easier or go for the authentic thing and let that experience slap you in the face. All the mistakes made on that first ryokan experience together with all that apprehension and cluelessness makes for great memories and is a must for your Japanese learning curve imo.

I do see the appeal of Flatt's for the apprehensive first timer though. My advise, and it's just my take, would be to get slapped in the face and save the Italian version for the next trip when you can give Kanazawa and it's environs the time they deserve. I see you two going back to Japan for another trip.....oh wait, you already are,lol.
Your right to compare Japan to CA. Think how many trips it would take you, living in LA, to see all the wonders of CA north to south.....east and west and all in between? To Japan you add in the foreign aspect, culture,world heritage sites and it's sheer beauty and its no wonder we haven't stopped planning trips there yet.

Aloha!

Craig

Just to chime in here once more (sorry Bill to hog your thread). We are doing Flatt's primarily for the rural Japan experience. The fact that one can eat a decent meal there and stay overnight very inexpensively is a bonus. We are also doing a very expensive (by my standards) ryokan - Beniya Mukayu, located between Kanazawa and Kyoto. It is not in a rural area but each room has its own authentic hot springs bath and of course, the food is the highlight.