ForSilentVoices

Hello to anyone..I am new and seeking information about the Masai tribe. I recently read an article from the very famous Daphne Sheldrick. It included a story about "Lil Ol Tukai," a baby elephant who was speared by Masai tribe member. I saw the pictures and shared the author's thougts that this act was not one of any type of warrior but that of a coward. Is there anyone that knows where I can obtain more informaton about this tribe? Has anyone heard of other tribes doing such things? Do you understand why they do this? I hear they are very stuck in their ways while other tribes have ben educated and working wth conservation, respecting animal life. The only reason the Mssai killed the baby was to prove they could throw a spear hard enough for a deadly piercing. It upset me greatly. Thank you for any information or help in understanding. Lisa

Thembi

Hi ForSilentVoices -
I am not sure about where various Massai tribes live or their attitude towards Ele's - except that there are many people who view Ele's as a blight to their livelihoods, with some reason given their voracious appetites and the destruction to subsistence crops. This said however education and understanding and effective methods to mitigate against people coming into conflict with ele's where they live are the answers to this problem of human/ele conflict.

Age old beliefs are not to be viewed through western eyes, education and the understanding coming from new ways of seeing can be found in Daphne Sheldrick (David Sheldrick Foundation) story about the rescue of orphan Ele, Kilgoris. Link here:
http://www.sheldrickwildlifetrust.or...file.asp?N=167

On their website there is another story about an Ele child who had been speared, another who had part of her ear cut off by locals - before rescue.

It is a mistake to write off a a 'group' of people by the actions of some. Particularly when we see the world through different eyes and we are not trying to eke out an existence from a harsh (but beautiful) land.
Cheers
Thembi

ForSilentVoices

Dear Themba,
Thank you kindly for your insight. I ust agree with you that it is my western eyes not understanding or rather accepting ancient cultures/ rituals. I suppose I don't look at things through their eyes.....as yes, Im sure the eles do cause destruction to their crop...no telling what other problems they may have to live with from them.

I'm being quite judgmental I guess. Not all natives there would do the same as what I read, and even those who did....okay, they do not see this animal as I do and is can be desructive. Yet still..... I so deplore when any animal life is nor respected. It is difficult.

Thank you for the link to Sheldrick. Ive been working with them for over 8 years now and cannot count the elephants Ive adopted and watched grow. I had to smile at the specific link you sent high-lighting the newcomer baby bull, Kiligoris. I adopted him also as soon as he got there <laughing>

I will be in Kenya soon and will be talking with Dame Sedlrick. I will try harder to learn yet be ever so careful to watch my judgment of others. You are right about the new ways. I look towards the fuure with Hope. I am the same way at home in the US constantly dreaming/ striving for a world where all of us can live in harmomy and share the earth with all creatures.

Thank you, Thembi. Peace to you. Lisa

Favor

Thembi - So we shouldn't question the need for a Maasai to prove their worth in spearing by throwing against an elephant or their manhood by killing a lion (which always is let off because the lion was of course attacking the cattle), but not ok for a hunter from Germany or the US to do the same?

I've never trophy hunted any animal anywhere and don't understand or feel the desire to do so, but I also don't sit on a throne and assume I know which people are evil and which are noble in their desire to do the exact same thing.

Bill_H

Lisa, regarding the Maasai and elephant conflicts I suggest you read the book "Elephant Memories" by Cynthia Moss, which may be available at a local library.

She is an elephant researcher who worked for years at Amboseli and is friend to both ellies and Maasai, and in this book details some of the elephant spearings, complete with photos of some septic wounds.

In many cases the conflicts were due to drought forcing elephants to share dwindling water resources with Maasai livestock, often when either the ellies had to leave Amboseli or the Maasai had to bring their livestock to water inside Amboseli.

It's not as simple as "Maasai, they bad" because the park service was supposed to drill separate wells to keep the ellies and the Maasai from each other in the drought years. For years they delayed on doing this.

It's a complex issue, with at least one root cause being the competition for limited resources (water and land) during a time of drought. Though admittedly some of the spearings seem indefensible, especially of the young ... but at least this book will give you some background from the perspective on an elephant advocate.

Bill

Thembi

Howdy Favor - Please do not misunderstand me. I am appalled by the need to prove themselves whatever the country they come from. I did not explicilty say that it is ok for Massai to spear Ele and Lion, it is not.

The irony is that it appears to be OK for "western" hunters to pay big dollars to shoot an ele or lion but that when a local does the same thing (but doesn't pay the government) it is viewed that they are doing something illegal.

If a tradition is cruel or wrong then it should be changed - but that will not happen by just saying it should be so - it happens by education. If more massai men speared a lion and an ele - this would seriously cause pain and suffering, as is currently the case. If more western men turned up in Africa with their guns blazing (as was the case in the 18th and 19th centuries) then there wouldn't be any animals left. As is the case in some east/west African countries.

My comments on education and understanding stand just as well for all people who would prosecute animals. Cruelty is cruelty in any language or "tradition".

I don't think that having an opinion and trying to see both sides is throne sitting - but i can see that others may think so. I do know however that not expressing an opinion or becoming active to try to change those things we feel strongly about is a cop out.

Evil and good are constructs - noble and pure are constructs. But there is a sense from which each of us form our opinions and view the world and try to make sense of the insanity. I can see that you may have thought i was being hypocritical for trying to see the other side. I am not defending the indefensible.

Lisa asked a question and I tried to give MHO. Favor, I actually think we are in agreement. Bill_H last paragraph wraps it up.

Favor

Thembi - You were the one who talked about western hunters being afflicted with "bloodlust and over-developed gonads" and then you say that "Age old beliefs are not to be viewed through western eyes" and that "It is not hunters who keep the balance... it is the presence of sensitive, throne-sitting travellers such as ourselves!"

If that's not a hypocritical read of the situation I don't know what is.

Granted over the years I've met less than 20 Maasai, and probably really communicated with only 5, but I can tell you some of them can hold their own in the testosterone-fueled weenie-wagging department with any western hunter. Hunting lions is a kick both groups appreciate.

Singling out one for ridicule while giving a pass to the other bugs me.

Rosenose

If she is the country, you can go visit Cynthia Moss while you are in Kenya. Her "headquarters" are in Amboseli in the midst of the Masai. My daughter and I -- along with 4 Masai young women (3 who were teaching in Amboseli during their gap year and one my daughter's age (15))-- visited with Ms Moss last August. She is an expert in Masai/elephant relations and clearly articulated both interests--the Masais' and the elephant preservationists'.

Thembi

Howdy Favor - you have met more Massai men than I have and I lived with one for 2 years.

Hypocrisy, certainly not intended, but perceived or not (and I have already acknowledged that i can see how one would think I was hypocritical in putting both arguments ) - as a western woman I feel more experienced, qualified and educated to have an opinion about western men and their motivations and practices than Massai men and theirs. My writings have obviously stuck in your craw and I am sorry for that.

Bill_H I have just orderd (coincidently yesterday, before your posting) Cynthia Moss's - Elephant Memories and look forward to better understanding the long history of Ele and human lives in this region.

From the Throne ...
Thembi

afrigalah

Well, Jude, I know and understand where you're coming from. I can also understand why some with a simplistic view could also detect hyprocisy.

If we allow that both 'western' hunters and the Maasai are following testosterone-driven traditions and nothing but, I would have more sympathy for Favor's view if the western hunters put their high-powered rifles aside and (using as many helpers as they wished, but no expert guides, vehicles or ultra-light spotting aircraft) tackled a lion with nothing more than a Maasai spear. And still paid the current going rate for a trophy lion hunt.

As I understand it, the Maasai lion hunt is a traditional way for a very young man to graduate into manhood. Are we to believe that the usually mature-age white hunters (always quite rich?) still feel the need to prove their manhood? I think they probably do, but most if not all of them would be very offended if you suggested that.

Sorry, Favor, but you're comparing apples with oranges.

John

Mega4namaddy

There seems to be violent agreement on this thread that hunting animals inflicts a cruel, and often, unnecessary death on them.
I can only suggest that even when the dust dies down on the debate on hunting and which is the most venerable or ‘moral’ tradition, it will still be easier to educate the perpetrators of hunting in any culture, than it is to educate wildlife to duck.
M

Favor

Apples and Oranges? - Rubbish

I think both groups hunt lions for the same reasons. To show mastery of nature, bravery in the face of danger, and because it's thrilling. For both groups it's a marker or milestone on some journey to manhood/acceptance. Tactics and tool differences certainly. Even with a gun you are not guaranteed to get your lion, nor does it guarantee you'll come out unscathed - better odds certainly, but at bottom the same motivation.

Read this from www.maasai-association.org/lion.html

Why do the Maasai warriors hunt lions?

The practice of lion hunting is viewed by the Maasai society as bravery and achievement. In the past, when the lion population was high, the community encouraged solo lion hunting. However, over the last ten years, due to the decline of the lion population, because of rabbies, the community has adapted a new rule that discourage solo lion hunting. The elders encouraged the warriors to hunt a lion in a group of ten. Group hunting, known in Maasai as olamayio, gives the lion population a chance to grow.

According to Maasai customary laws, the warriors are not allowed to hunt a lion, suffering from drought, snared or poison. The Maasai believe that females are the bearers of life in every species. As auch, it is prohibited to hunt a female lion-- unless the lioness has posed threat to human or livestock.

The Maasai understands that lions are important to the savanna's ecology and culture. For that reason, the Maasai takes extra caution when it comes to lion hunting. The Maasai warriors do not just go out and hunt lions because they can. The rules are there, and are followed accordingly by every warrior

The practice of lion hunting allows the Maasai warriors to show off their fighting ability on a non-human target. At the end of each age-set, usually after ten years, the warriors must count all of their lions, then compare them with those hunted by the former age-set. This is in order to measure accomplishment of the age-set.

- End of article.

Though it's not a universal metric (thank goodness) if you remove any class-envy spectacles ("always quite rich&quot and objectively look at the situation you'll see both groups are about the same thing. What sticks in my craw is seeing a group of people held to a lower standard than another because they're perceived poorer or wanting on some scale.

afrigalah

We can agree to disagree, Favor, rather than go 'round in circles

John

Thembi

Howdy Favor - On Thread/off Thread. You are absolutely right. All those qualifiers like Quite rich, Gonads, Viewing through western eyes etc - are totally unsupportable and no matter how inarticulate I might be in trying to encompass several threads of thought in several arguments and see things through different ways of seeing - your arguments have left me totally convinced you are right. To use your term "Weanie-Waggers" abound no matter what the country or view point.

The main thing though is of course Lisa's original thread where she stated- "The only reason the Massai killed the baby was to prove they could throw a spear hard enough for a deadly piercing. It upset me greatly. Thank you for any information or help in understanding."

And maybe my coming at it from one angle and you coming at it from another has aided that understanding. Another thread has just popped up that adds to this one... Three Lion Killed by Massai - http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34963102

We are all trying to understand. Or should be.
Jude

Favor

Thembi - Wouldn't it be great if a satisfying rite of passage were something on the order of solving a rubik's cube, hiking a certain distance in a certain time, balancing your checkbook on the first go round, or reciting some piece from memory?