Graceful585

We would love to travel to the countries I've listed above in a 3 1/2 week time frame. Is this really doable without feeling like we're spending more time on the train than out seeing the sights?

With the train, if we're going for 3 1/2 weeks what is the best train service to use for these countries? Eurail or some other?

I'm struggling with trying to figure out the best route and where we'll fly into and out of. We'd like to go to Zurich & Berner Oberland in Switzerland and Oslo and Trondheim in Norway, Freiburg, Ulm, Manheim, then Luxenburg, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark...not sure where in those countries we'll go yet.

I'm just thinking that this is a lot in only 3 1/2 weeks...I'd appreciate any input on this and some advice on the train. We are not looking to rent a car but do everything by train.

This will be our first visit to these areas so any insights and assitance would be greatly appreciated.

hsv

This itinerary would require some heavy involvement of flying in between destinations IMHO.
You'd really be zigzagging across Europe - and even within some countries as Oslo and Trondheim are not exactly close to each other. May I inquire why Mannheim, Germany, is on your list?

enzian

You could fly into Oslo and out of Zürich, but you'll be spending a lot of time on trains in between. Oslo up to Trondheim is 6 hours each way. Oslo down to Copenhagen (via Göteborg in Sweden) is 8 hours at best. From there to Luxemburg, 13 hours (via Köln); or to Amsterdam, 11 hours.

Some of these can be done as night trains if you wish. Your best place to start planning would be to visit the Deutschebahn website (www.bahn.de) and put in various combinations to see what makes sense. You may wish to drop some of your choices as too far off the main route.

hopscotch

Graceful,

"What is the best train service?"
Each country has it's own national railroad. Therefore you'll be traveling on the trains of the countries you are visiting. If by "Eurail" you mean "EurailPass" then I would guess that a EurailPass will certainly save you a lot of money for the geography you plan to cover. There are web sites with point-to-point (ptp) ticket prices. Some are good and some not so. Other Fodorites will probably contribute their favorite and less than favorite ptp price sites. I love EurailPass because of the freedom it gives me.

"I'm struggling with trying to figure out the best route ..."
Get a map and select the shortest routes. Since you are going to use the trains the best map is the Thomas Cook Rail Map of Europe. It's the best darn planning tool you can get for rail travel. Get the Cook Timetable while you are at it.
www.thomascookpublishing.com/
Use the keyword search box for "rail map of europe" on the Thomas Cook site.

"... and where we'll fly into and out of."
That is a huge question. It depends on when you are going and where you are starting from. Try www.kayak.com and start looking. Someone else on Fodor's recommended kayak last year and I ended up with a real bargain from www.airfare.com. Kayak is basically a search engine for air fares.

"I'm just thinking that this is a lot in only 3 1/2 weeks..."
Your thinking is absolutely correct. It is a lot, and the places are far apart. But you can do it. I recommend using the night trains for the long distances you are covering. I love them. The cost of bunk supplements is usually less than the cost of an average hotel room. In first class, which I assume you will be using with your EurailPass (unless you are under 26), you often have a full bath in your compartment. Sometimes you get a free breakfast. You don't see much from the window of a night train, but there are very few train routes in Europe where you see anything besides fields and forests and railroad depots anyway.

"...any insights..."
#1. Norway is bleeding expensive.
#2. Use the Fodor search box (above) to seek out gazillions of additional advisories on the places you named.
#3. Haarlem, Netherlands, is my favorite partly because I have lived there for 4 years and know it well. Use Fodor search and Google.com search to learn more about Haarlem.
#4. You ask for "best" a couple of times. I assume you mean the cheapest. So when looking for a room also look for a B+B or pension.

nytraveler

IMHO too much for the time allowed - you wil regret having to spend to smuch time on train travel. why not focus on either Scandinavia - is there some reason you;re not interested in Sweden? Or else do Neterlands, Germany, Switz - either is plenty of territory for 3 weeks.

ira

Hi G,

Five countries in 26 days?

It takes almost 7 hr from Trondheim to Oslo. You'll want to do that on a night train.

It's 15 hr from Copenhagen to Ulm on the night train.

Do keep in mind that every time you change hotels you lose at least 1/2 day.

Train schedules are at www.bahn.de. You can also buy tickets into/through/out of Germany.

Before buying a railpass (which might be good for you) enter your itinerary at www.railsaver.com and click "only if it saves money".

Maps are at www.mappy.com and www.viamichelin.com

Graceful585

Thank you everyone for all your suggestions. I'm in agreement that this is probably to much for one trip in 26 days.

Our trip is based around Norway for my husbands family came from Norway. He also wants to go to Germany because he has some family areas he'd like to visit there. I personally would love to go to Swizerland and Belgium...but mostly Swizerland. If I had my way, I'd be going to Sweeden too but he's not interested in Sweeden...because I was thinking that going to Norway, Sweeden and Finland would probably easier to plan with trains being their all to the north and easier to manipulate with Norway than heading south.

Enzian...thank you for giving the times from Oslo to Trondeheim...I was hoping maybe we could fly into Trondeheim but I'm sure that is a shuttle flight that you take from Oslo...which is more expensive. It sounds like Norway is very expensive anyways from what someone posted...

Hopscotch: we actually will be using our Worldperk miles for our flights so we won't have to purchase tickets, just use our miles. That is a huge savings right there. Thank you for the sites you've listed, I've bookmarked Thomas Cook Publishing and will do what you've suggested there. You mention also B&B's which you used throughout Scotland when we traveled there a few years ago...love B&B's...you also mentioned "Pension"...what would that be??? Hostels possibly?

Ira: Thank you for the hours and suggestion of doing Oslo to Trondheim on a night train...also, thank you for all the links you provided...I've bookmarked them all.

padams421

We just spent 2.5 weeks in Denmark, Norway, and Sweden. I can't imagine adding in Germany, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg in just another week.

Why not go to Denmark, Norway and Germany and save the other places for another trip?

hopscotch

Pension is another name for B+B in some countries. Hostels are low cost bunk house type places. Some offer private rooms for families.

Dukey

Two recommendations: input any final itinerary at www.railsaver.com to see if rail passes are more economical than point-to-point tickets.

Go to either www.skyscanner.net or www.whichbudget.com and input any possible itineraries to find out if a budget airline serves the route.

Just about everyone here has assumed you are going to rail it everywhere and I agree for many of the places you list rail may be the most viable option although you can fly to at least five locations in Germany from Norway on a budget carrier.

enzian

Graceful,

Since Norway is the focus of your trip, you can see mountain scenery there that rivals the beauty of Switzerland. I have spent a lot of time in both countries, and love them equally! But Switzerland is the place in your hoped-for itinerary that is the most out of the way, so I'm thinking you could leave that off and see the mountains, glaciers and fjords of Norway instead.

However, to really see and appreciate Norway, you would need to rent a car, and I encourage you to consider that. Driving there is very easy---the roads are very good (although narrow in some places) and well-signed, and the driving customs are much like what we have in the U.S. In other words, I found driving there pretty stress-free, unlike driving in, say, Italy.

Outside of the cities, you will find campgrounds with cabins to rent at fairly reasonable prices. And if your husband has family there, perhaps they can steer you toward reasonably-priced places to stay. I'm afraid I don't have any specific recommendations, because we mostly stayed with friends.

A trip covering Norway, Denmark, and the parts of Germany you wish to see would be very possible in 3.5 weeks. You could use the car only in Norway, and then take the ferry to Copenhagen and trains from there, or take the train right from Oslo (it goes through Sweden, so you'd see a bit of that country as well).

Graceful585

Padams: Thank you for your input...that may be what we'll consider doing as it sounds like Norway has just as much beauty as Swizerland.

Dukey, thanks for the suggestion, I'll use those links to see if there's any savings with flights.

Enzian: I like the suggestion on driving in Norway to see more. The cabin idea is a good one...but as with most cabins here you have to have your own bed linen etc...I'll research it though.