Dayle

Vrbo was nice while it lasted. Sounds like it's over for me. I'll go back to hotels within my price range or camping. And I will investigate other web sites for price comparisons.

vincenzo32951

sylvia: >>No, I'm not comparing apples and oranges; I'm explaining that VRBO is NOT hotels (similar or not), but private places that owners pay to list on the VRBO site.

julies

VRBO has been my go-to website for years because it offered exactly what I wanted and needed. I know some owners won't rent without extensively interviewing the renters. As a renter, I feel the same way. I want to have lots of personalized contact with the owner to make sure that I am getting exactly what I want. To me, the "book it now" button idea assumes that what we are talking about is something like a hotel where every one bedroom unit is the same, and there are no questions relevant to the unit. I too will now be looking for work arounds.

I do not know how much work it would be for an owner, but setting up a private website might work out. I mention this because the first time I used AirB&B we were in Italy looking for a rather last minute 3 night booking. I had decided we wanted the place, I'd communicated with the owner through AirB&B, but I couldn't get the booking mechanism to work since my video of myself proving I was a real person wouldn't post successfully so I could proceed with my booking. (I still hate AirB&B to this day because of things like this. Plus, I don't like their fee.) In one of our many communications the owner mentioned that I could probably find the listing elsewhere. Copying and pasting the wording from the AirB&B website, I found the owner's website with her phone number. I called, and we worked it out that way. No AirB&B fee either.

In a link posted up towards the top of this thread I read about the idea of copying an image from the VRBO website and then doing a Google image search. That is another possible work around.

sylvia3

Vinnie, not sure why you're not comprehending what I wrote (seems pretty simple), but this dog-and-bone thing wears thin. Did i say something elsewhere to which you to which you took particular offense?

BTW, owner phone numbers are often listed on the vrbo page. I experimented for a friend with a kisimmee property, by the "emai the owner" link, and everything went through vrbo, not her, with additional urgings to book through vrbo for my "safety". She also hates the new vrbo.

nicholas0

I am an owner of a couple properties on vrbo/homeaway and am also very disappointed with the service fee, which for me, just seems to be a way for the new owner (Expedia) to try and continue to increase profits and squeeze more $ for unsuspecting renters.

I sent emails to some of the Vrbo/Homeaway executives expressing my disapproval of new service fee, as well as a drop in my requests and was told:

..."The good news is that we’ve not seen a material decrease in the number of booking requests on our sites as a result of the fee. In fact, most of the concerns that have been raised are by owners (like you) who are worried about the potential impact of the fee, and not from travelers who are concerned with paying it. Our booking volumes continue to grow year over year.

Most importantly, we’re reinvesting the funds generated by the service fee in pay per click marketing which is bringing more traffic to our sites, and by extension more bookings to your properties.

It may seem counterintuitive, but consider that you are not being charged for this marketing investment with higher prices from HomeAway. Travelers are paying the fee to HomeAway, and we are, in turn, spending it with search engine partners like Google to bring more travelers to our sites. We are confident in our ability to drive more bookings to your listings than ever before.

In addition, we’ve added the book with confidence guarantee (see this link here for a description of the guarantee https://www.homeaway.com/info/ha-gua...ith-confidence). This guarantee is designed to enhance conversion by removing the fear that a traveler might have in booking on VRBO or HomeAway. This is most pronounced with new travelers who have never booked a vacation rental before.

However, there are a number of changes designed to enhance conversion that have resulted in changes to the timing and flow of demand on our sites. Most notably, our best match sort algorithm is shortening the booking window (the time between booking and stay) for many markets. While we’re confident that we can deliver traffic and bookings to our properties, they are coming later as we’re more effectively targeting the peak of demand. In addition, we’ve changed the way “dateless searches” function to increase overall bookings. To gauge your viability on our sites, you should be searching with dates that your listing has available. Dated searches account for 75% of our bookings and inquiries.

Many customers have observed these changes in their demand timing or their expected behavior on the site (particularly dated searches) and have attributed this change to best match...."

Though I was very appreciative of his response and prompt reply, I still don't buy their reasoning behind it and I told him as much. I hope they will reconsider this fee as it is not the way to go. All one needs to see the unhappiness from Vrbo/Homeaway Homeowners and Renters, is to take a look at the consumer affairs website on the matter: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/online/vrbo.html

Sue_xx_yy

I can see it's very annoying, but Christina has a point: most times a consumer has only two options - do things the vendor's (VRBO's) way or take the highway. If one gives up using a service, the highway will need to take one to a viable alternative.

Lots of entities in the travel industry charge fees, well, sometimes because they must (e.g. airport improvement fees imposed by the agencies that run the airports) and sometimes simply because they can. Yup, that is annoying. But the law in most jurisdictions requires only that what is promised by contract, must be delivered - not that what is promised, turns out to be of good value. The 'book with confidence guarantee' might be useful insurance, or it might be like the $23 'solar clothes dryer' that turns out to be a clothesline available at a hardware store for 1/3 the price - something that is rather fancily named, for what is actually on offer.

If you do not take your custom elsewhere, you, the market are 'bearing' the vendor's charge. It may be easier to avoid using services one dislikes, if you stick to visiting a narrow range of places where you get to know, first hand, the local market in accommodations (e.g. while visiting place x on one trip, one does a little research on places to book the next trip, including introducing oneself to the owner.)

anniemackie

No matter the company semantics, this is quite simply a matter of price gouging. And, also the reason we recently booked two rooms at a hotel and decided to eat out for less than the price of a potential weekend rental. No, it wasn't as comfy, but the price of the "service fee" covered a nice dinner out. We didn't have to cook or schlepp for groceries and more importantly, we didn't feel as if we were being ripped off.

So, I guess you could say we took the proverbial highway and surprisingly, enjoyed our ride.

We have used VRBO exclusively for years, but until this situation is resolved for both owners and guests, we will avoid it like the plague.

--Annie

sylvia3

Everyone who is irked by these gouging fees should mention it to the VRBO powers that be. I have.
"Lots of entities in the travel industry charge fees"; yes; and owners already pay them.
The "security" is no more than that already covered by your own cc's fraud protection.

julies

Yes, it is price gouging!

We did just book a listing I found on VRBO, but we did not complete the booking through VRBO. Why should I pay them a large fee when they are doing absolutely no more for me than they were several months ago before implementing this fee?


And, I agree that the canned response Nicholas0 got from VRBO management is just a bunch of garbage.

sylvia3

This was passed on by a friend who rents a property in florida on VRBO: a letter to owners, one of the most self-serving things I've seen.

"Letter to Owners and Property Managers from Brian Sharples

Since the launch of the new service fee on HomeAway, I have heard from many of our long-term customers via email. And I’ve been following posts on the subject on social media. Many of you share the same concerns, so it makes sense to respond with an open letter to all concerned customers so you have the opportunity to read my answers to your questions.

I want to let you know that I am listening to your concerns, and every HomeAway employee is committed to making you as successful as possible.

First, I understand that many of you would like more and clearer communication on changes coming to our sites. Despite our attempts at communicating this change in advance, we fell short of your expectations. I take full accountability to make sure we are better on this in the future. Below, I want to explain our rationale for launching a service fee, and tell you a bit about how we plan to incorporate your feedback going forward.

Second, I want to acknowledge that we are in the middle of a huge shift for the industry. The good news is that vacation rentals are now considered a mainstream travel option, but as a result travelers are demanding more from listing sites like HomeAway and VRBO. Our research and experience shows that it is no longer enough for us to just operate an online classified listing site. (I miss the good old days too – believe me.) We know this because properties that are online bookable get chosen at almost double the rate of ones that are not. And our most dissatisfied travelers are complaining louder than ever about listings with inaccurate calendars and offline payment methods that can’t be backed up with online receipts and solid financial protection from our company.

As a result we announced in late 2014 that we would ask all of our owners to make their properties bookable online by the end of 2016. This doesn’t mean you can’t still communicate or negotiate with travelers prior to accepting a booking request, but it does mean that your properties need to be accurately quotable online, calendars need to be maintained, and we need to be able to process the booking through our systems in order to provide the financial guarantees travelers are demanding.

To incentivize our owners to adopt online booking, we have increasingly been favoring online bookable properties in our sort algorithms. It is no secret to any of our owners that a higher position in sort leads to more bookings. We are also rewarding listings in sort when they have higher conversion rates – because a listing that rejects most of its booking or inquiry requests is not a good experience for travelers. Most of the travelers who choose to stop using our sites say it’s because they are frustrated by not being able to find a property that is actually available. This is offset by being able to book the property online so it increases the number of travelers who gravitate to HomeAway listings that are bookable online. Worst case for our customers and HomeAway: travelers leave our sites and go to sites where all properties are already required to be online bookable.

Our #1 goal at HomeAway is to drive more bookings to our owners and property managers. Your success is our success, as it has always been in this business. Every piece of evidence says that the right way to do this, given the demands of the “new” vacation rental consumer, is to do the following:

Provide transparent price and availability data so travelers can get accurate quotes online
Back up every transaction with a strong guarantee, instilling trust in new travelers who are unfamiliar with our industry and how it works
Invest heavily in brand and online marketing to compete with other travel alternatives such as hotels. Now that vacation rentals are mainstream and the category is large, we need to work harder than ever to bring in more travelers
Protect the rights of owners to rent their homes on a short-term basis. We are currently fighting battles in dozens of cities and investing millions of dollars to maintain your ability to rent out your home to guests.


So why did we launch a service fee?
The biggest motivation was to better accomplish the things I’ve mentioned above. Today, our subscription customers pay us roughly 3% of the revenue we generate for them while our major competitors charge 6-15% (mostly in service fees). We’ve always been proud to be the lowest cost solution for renting your home. But we simply can’t provide the level of marketing and service that today’s travelers expect without asking travelers to also pay a fee for the service we provide.

Many owners have asked me if our fee was motivated by greed. The reality is that we’re re-investing the majority of this money into marketing to bring in more travelers (we nearly doubled marketing spend with the introduction of this fee) and to provide true financial guarantees that can protect and help travelers who have bad experiences from using our sites. And we’re also more than doubling our investment in government relations efforts to continue fighting for the rights of property owners all over the world.

With that said, let me address some of the other things I’ve heard in the letters and posts from our owners and managers:

“The new fee represents double-dipping because we’re charging both the owner and the traveler” – In our marketplace there are two people that benefit: travelers and owners. Going forward, we are asking both sides to bear some of the cost for the service we provide, and research shows us that travelers do not see the fee as a barrier to booking.

“The combination of the new fee and what you already charge is too much” – We hear you on this. With the launch of the service fee, we did take down the rates charged to our suppliers for our pay-per-booking listing product (and our subscribers are always welcome to choose that option). In April we will announce a new long-term plan for subscribers that we believe is more balanced than what we have today. This will be based on our research leading into the launch, the data we are observing from this launch, and also will include the feedback we’ve been receiving.

“Travelers won’t pay these fees and they will choke off bookings” – I can completely understand this fear, in fact, I had that worry, too. So we did a lot of research and testing before launching this fee, which is already charged at even higher rates by our two largest competitors in the United States. We’ve processed tens of thousands of bookings in just the last few days with a service fee. Early data tells us that the fee has not been a meaningful deterrent for travelers making a booking on our sites. We will be carefully studying how these fees impact bookings at different pricing levels, and adjustments may be made in the coming weeks. The booking data we’re seeing supports our belief that this fee will not have a meaningful negative impact for the vast majority of our customers.

“By simply calling it a ‘service fee’ on the site the travelers don’t know who is actually charging them.” – The community is right about this and we hear you. We’ll be adding language to the sites to let travelers know the service fee is being paid to us, and will clearly spell out the extra guarantees that come along with booking online.

“I’m better off dropping online booking, even though it is what you asked me to do.” – Many of you are justifiably concerned that non-online bookable properties now look cheaper on the site. And you may think switching back to the “old way” will make you more competitive. I completely understand the point here, but it would not be the right move for your rental business, because the benefits of sort would completely outweigh any short-term benefit of opting out of online booking. The fact is that all online bookable listings are advantaged in sort order. And our sort algorithms going forward will be incorporating booking history and booking conversion as a factor in determining search position. Simply put – the more and higher frequency of online bookings you do, the better you’ll perform on our sites over the long term.

I hope this explanation was helpful, and I appreciate that many of you are nervous and still quite concerned. I also want to acknowledge again that I could have done a better job of communicating our rationale up front. Please know I am listening to your concerns, and we will take them into account as we design our new pricing plan to be announced in April. And rest assured that if we see a meaningful decline in bookings from the fee, we will make adjustments to get it right. But at the moment bookings are flowing at a very good pace (consistent with booking volumes before launch of the fee), and I should also note that most of the calls made to customer service have been from owners, not the travelers paying the actual fee.

Please continue to write and provide input. Again I’m sorry I can’t answer everyone’s email personally. But I will read them and come back in a few days with a post to answer other questions that are consistent from our community. In the meantime I ask you to please bear with us through these changes and evaluate our service as you always have - based on the business we deliver to you over the next several months and years.

Thank you,
Brian Sharples
Co-Founder and CEO"

MmePerdu

I have no experience with VRBO. I have a great deal of experience with Airbnb, on both sides of the business. What I see in the letter above is a shift to the very successful Airbnb way of doing business and I see no reason for the alarm except for the change, and resistance to change that effects most of us.

The Airbnb model has proved that hosts and guests aren't resistant to fees, providing they aren't excessive and when, combined with the rental rate, they make renting accommodations on the site in line with the competition. It makes perfect sense to me that if they do that, it will be a success, as Airbnb has been. It will ruffle the feathers of those who are used to another model but, in the long run, I see no reason whatever why they should back down.

Since I've seen no actual figures on the percentages of each of the fees charged (to owners or to guests) I have no way of knowing if the greed factor is real or imagined. The marketplace functions by all things being relative. So what are the fees? If they're higher than the competition for comparable properties, they'll likely be adjusted. If they are comparable, get used to a new way of doing things.

Sue_xx_yy

Sylvia3 - Thank you for posting the reply from the operator of VRBO. I'll get back to that in a minute.

First, please know that by pointing out that many entities charge service fees, I am neither justifying nor condemning the practice in general. I was simply pointing out that avoiding such fees/split pricing is not going to be easy.

************

Now to Mr. Sharples' reply.

The issues he mentions are real enough; there ARE, or have been, problems with some calendars; consumers who shop online DO tend to prefer to have instant confirmation of availability and of their booking.

BUT I can see that owners might not like instant confirmation, even though it would mean the calendar and inventory update immediately. Mr. Sharples is thinking in terms of increasing bookings and competing with airbnb; in contrast, the owners might have security/the desire to pre-screen patrons as a priority, with increased bookings as secondary. This is a head-on collision between the kind of business model an owner might want, and what Mr. Sharples has in mind.

To be fair, the conflict between the business model of internet agencies and that of homeowners is not specific to this agency; the conflict also existed long before this fee was introduced.

Inakauaidavidababy

Thanks sylvia

I'm going with the corporate greed side of the aisle.

Mr. Sharpie is Co-Founder who has been cashing in from the get go. I'm not confident of my facts, but I think they first cashed in with a great idea, sold out to Homeaway for a price and cashed in with Expedia while becoming CEO and keeping the finger on the pulse - of his bank account.

He spins an unimpressive yarn.

Inakauaidavidababy

Oh now I see Mr Sharples was a cofounder of Homeaway not vrbo. Which came after vrbo aquired them.

Inakauaidavidababy

History[edit]
HomeAway, Inc. was founded in 2004 as CEH Holdings.[7] The company acquired several sites and consolidated them into a single vacation marketplace, launching HomeAway.com in June 2006.[8]

The acquisitions that HomeAway has made include:

Date Acquisition Location
2005 CyberRentals.com U.S.
2005 GreatRentals.com U.S.
2005 A1Vacations.com U.S.
2005 TripHomes.com U.S.
2005 HomeAway.co.uk United Kingdom
2005 FeWo-direkt.de Germany
2006 VRBO.com[9] U.S.
2007 Abritel.fr[10] France
2007 VacationRentals.com[11] U.S.
2007 OwnersDirect.co.uk[12] United Kingdom
2009 Homelidays.com[13] France
2010 BedandBreakfast.com[14] U.S.
2010 AlugueTemporada.com.br[15] Brazil
2010 Instant Software [16] US
2010 Escapia [17] US
2011 RealHolidays.com.au[18] Australia
2012 Toprural.com[19] Spain
2013 Travelmob[20] Singapore
2013 Stayz Australia[21] Australia
2013 Bookabach.co.nz[22] New Zealand
2014 Glad to Have You, Inc.[23] U.S.

LiveSlow99

I have been renting properties once or twice a year from VRBO for over a decade - all the way back to the good old days when it really was actual owners renting their personal units.

I enjoyed the intimate relationship with the owner who would share personal insight and knowledge of the area - suggesting things as to do, restaurants in which to to dine, etc.

Then over time I started noticing that I would inquire on 5 units and get the same canned response on 4 of the units. Obviously this isn't just an owner, I realized. I knew at that time things would change - for the worst. No more personal touch or flexibility, oddly high cleaning fees, etc.

I continued to use VRBO because I still felt it to be a good value however with the new service fee I will use VRBO NO MORE!

I was in the middle of finalizing a fall trip to Miami Beach when I stumbled upon the service fee while reviewing the agreements sent by the owner. First, "Non-refundable" is a game killer for me. I plan way far in advance and don't mind paying a reasonable retainer but always ensure I have a reasonable out if "life" happens.

Secondly, I don't see how this fee works for those units that can be "combined" with another unit. I was wanting to rent 2 connecting rooms that are listed separately so I was expected to pay the service fee for each individual unit. No way!

For several hundred dollars cheaper I have reserved 2 connecting rooms at a beach front hotel in South Beach and can cancel up to 72 hours ahead of time.

VRBO has not only lost its appeal but is no longer even a value. Owners can no longer claim to have rates significantly reduced from list price when a 10% non-refundable fee is tacked on to the bill. Smart travelers will take their business elsewhere.

sylvia3

My friend has her phone # on her vrbo page, but it's not easy for a guest to know enough to book through the phone instead of the email or website.
Maybe savvy owners will figure a way to say "phone us for the best rate"

julies

sylvia3--I agree with your idea. However, I strongly suspect that VRBO will go the way of its competitors in blocking any way for personal communication between owners and potential renters. Other sites like AirB&B delete any personal e-mails or phone numbers, eliminating the possibility of personal communication other than through their servers prior to booking (and paying their fee). It is not just that the info is not available on the booking site itself, they also do this in any of the e-mails that go through their server, thus totally eliminating any way to book or communicate other than through their official website. At least AirB&B originally (don't know if they do it any more) had a marketing gimick that said they were protecting both owners and renters by vetting them.

MmePerdu-- A couple questions for you: Does AirB&B still "guarantee" that owners and renters are honest and reliable real people? Credentialing is very different than acting as a credit card clearing house. As I understand it (and I could be wrong), the renter pays a booking fee to AirB&B that is a percentage of the total rental fee. What if, for example, I really wanted to rent your property for a month, but I only initially booked for three nights, thus paying a lower AirB&B fee. After making my payment I'd receive your direct contact information (personal phone number and e-mail). Could I then call you, have the conversation I want, and convert my rental to a month-long rental?

inakauaidavidababy--Thanks for the great info on acquisitions. Now I understand why I can no longer find any of those alternative booking sites I also used to happily use.

I am one of those people who much, much preferred the old way of doing business where VRBO was in essence a fancy classified listing, not a booking machine. And, if I am booking any private rental for longer than a couple nights I always want to have a conversation (not an e-mail exchange) with the owner. I'm assuming most owners would feel the same way.

To me, the glaring error and misunderstanding of their clientele I see is that in this new approach VRBO is assuming that all rentals they list are cookie cutter, with one being directly interchangeable for another.

MmePerdu

Julies, Airbnb verifies several methods of ID - phone, email, Facebook or equivalent, before allowing a new member to book, so the effect is guaranteeing everyone is who they say they are and almost completely eliminating the possibility of skullduggery. "Honest & reliable" is addressed as we accumulate reviews, both as guests & hosts. There are also insurance guarantees in place to address any unfortunate effects of a bad guy slipping through the system, although since the advent of verifications, it's highly unlikely.

Regarding booking short-term, then staying longer - yes, assuming the place is available and the host is willing to book additional time person to person, it could certainly be done, by phone.

Nepheline

I just happened on this thread. We've rented through VRBO several times a year for some years, most recently just a couple of weeks ago in Bluffton SC. That rental was arranged months ago, before this new fee was initiated. We were chatting with a store owner in Bluffton who also has several rentals he advertises on VRBO. He told us about the fee and was apopletic. He told us that people can use Paypal to pay and circumvent VRBO. I know nothing about Paypal but would be interested to know if anyone on Fodor's could explain this. I won't be renting using VRBO if it entails the payment of the additional fee.
Thanks.
Gail