First let me say that I enjoyed everything that was posted in this topic! And I agree with almost everything. And I am from Philadelphia. I currently live in Tokyo and let me tell you--this city is uglier than Philly. I miss Philly so much that I am leaving Tokyo soon, probably never to return. I know that there are "scary" parts and most people may seem rude. But I also believe Philadelphians have their own original humor that many others may take as rudeness. You just have to know how to give it right back. I'm sorry to anyone visiting that has had bad experiences. Just remember that saying that Philly is an ugly city is a generalization that really shouldn't be made. Philly is a large city and a diverse city and a historical city. It's not just ugly. And I can't wait to get back and have a cheese steak from Pat's!!

Going on a trip to Philly in May... where ARE the scary parts, so we can avaoid them? (We have a tendency to get lost in the WORST parts of cities we visit and would like to avoid that!) Also... being a Detroit Metro native, I would say Detroit's not scary, just "mostly dead".

I hate bringing this message to the top as I think Philadelphia is absolutely fabulous, but I wanted to respond to bz's query. While it's true that there are parts which are ugly industrial/ run-down, there are few cities that have as much to offer.

Unlike too many U.S. cities, Philly is not "mostly dead" at all. In fact, I find it one of the most vibrant urban centers in the USA. But I know what you mean about desolate streets; I live in Baltimore and hate how deserted the city gets at times.

Surprising to some, Philadelphia is ranked by FBI as the safest city of the 12th largest cities in the United States. I feel quite comfortable in Center City Philadelphia on the whole, even in the evening. Here the Shopping District (Walnut/Chestnut/Rittenhouse), Market St., Chinatown, Antique Row, Old City, South St., Italian Market (South Philly) usually have quite a lot of pedestrian traffic, and even my 62-year-old Mother who went up with me for the Flower Show, was pleased to see how safe it seemed... particularly since I'm considering moving to Center City for work!

Areas I've heard to avoid are parts of North Philly (near the North Philadelphia train station), West Philly west of U. Penn (although I hear this area is starting to revitalize), and Camden NJ across the river. Much of the northwestern and northeastern suburbs (in particular Manayunk, Chestnut Hill, Pennypack Park area) are supposed to be lovely.

Have a great trip. DAN

bz--I agree with what Dan said. I live right on the edge of Philadelphia. To get into the city I drive through the Northeast and you want to stay away from there. At night, I highly recommend Old City. South St. is also fun but can get a little weird sometimes, although it's much better than 10 years ago. During the day, anywhere in Center City is enjoyable. I must confirm that West Philly--the UPenn/Drexel area--does not have much to offer and I wouldn't go there. (I got my car broken into there one time!) Hope this helps. Erin

I'm a resident of Philadelphia, West Philly specifically. Sadly, the city has become the butt of jokes at UPenn, especially with my friends. But I will defend it to the bitter end!

Because I would say it's as beautiful as any city I've been to--including NYC, Baltimore, DC and San Fransisco. Rittenhouse Square is a fantastic place to eat or just walk around, especially the French Quarter. That particular section and Philly in general is KNOWN for its dining. And walking down Delaware Ave and Columbus Blvd at night is breathtaking. Besides, in how many other cities do you have a Dave and Busters? ;-)

West Philly is not the nicer part of the city but it has its own charm. Penn is trying to refurbish the area but is having trouble coming up with the funds. I've never worried about safety walking around at night.

The only problem with the city is the nightlife. My day tends to begin at 8pm and end around 4am...so my friends and I have a tough time coming up with things to do downtown. ;-)

Talking about the aesthetics of a city like Philadelphia is to truly miss the point of a visit to this city- a glimpse into American history with the perks of any other big city.

Is Philadelphia pretty? It depends. West River drive and boathouse row in the spring and summer are beautiful features that many tourists miss (unless they have a reason to travel into the burbs). Rittenhouse Square and the parks and knolls nearby are bastions of civility in a quick-tempoed urban setting. Think Philadelphia is ugly? Ask a child having a barbeque with his family in Fairmount Park on any given Sunday what he thinks- it is the most beautiful place on earth.

Of course, Philadelphia is also a gritty city with a working-class mentality. To the best of my knowledge, we've never tried to bill ourselves otherwise. Philadelphia is proud of its working class roots, and being a "city of neighborhoods" is the best way to describe the different flavors one may experience within a few moments walk.

As to Philadelphians being unfriendly, can anyone point to a large city where people ARE friendly? London is not, Paris is not, New York certainly is not. Moreover, Philadelphians are generally not used to thinking of this city as a tourist destination; accordingly, we rarely think that people here are unfamiliar with their surroundings. The attitude most Philadelphians exhibit is not unlike what would be experienced anywhere else; we are going about our lives, like ordinary people in other less well-known places, when we are being critiqued on how often we smile and say thank you? I'd love to see most of the critics on here on their way to work. I'm sure there is scarcely a city left where people smile at each other, greet each other pleasantly, or are inclined to help one another. It's a sad fact of modern life, but is certainly not unique to Philadelphia.

I'd like to add that Philadelphia is no less safe than any other big city, except that it is often inadvisable to stay out terribly late because so many places close early. In other words, be wary of walking around desolate streets. This is good advice for any locale, urban or rural, isn't it? I've heard of people being mugged in broad daylight in Manhattan; I've never heard of such a thing in any of Philadelphia's "tourist" areas (maybe in West Philly or North Philly- but unless you are visiting Temple University or University of Pennsylvania, you shouldn't be there anyway. There's nothing to do or see there). moreover, I've spent 3 years at Temple University, and never felt unsafe even in North Philadelphia, except for the rare ocasion I was alone there after dark.

If asked to describe Philadelphia, I would do it thus: Philadelphia is a big city (with all the relevant connotations) with world-class art, food, music and entertainment- as long as you don't mind being in bed shortly after midnight. Philadelphia is best seen with a native host, who knows what tourist traps to miss, what historical landmarks actually warrant a visit, and know if Pat's or Geno's is really better. My advice? Skip both of them, and try one of the exuisite restaurants in Old City or Walnut Street. You won't be sorry.

Is anything uglier than Philadelphia, Rex asked? Yes. The sterotypical "ugly american" tourist who leaves home and expects to find the same where ever he goes.

I grew up in Philly and, after living in NYC for 5 years and Cleveland for 4, recently decided to move back. Major pluses for Philly are its culture, history, food, proximity to NYC and ease of getting out of the city in general, and relatively cheap real estate. I agree with a previous post than mentioned a unique sense of humor that is here. However, that's another thread and probably imperceptible to a passing tourist. Minuses for Philly are a recent history of poor government (except Rendell), racial tensions (Rizzo, Goode, and MOVE), public transportation, and the urban blight of North and West Philadelphia. Generalizations about the people here will ultimately misrepresent their diversity - there are, after all, millions of people here. Generalizations about the sports fans are, well, generalizations about sports fans. That said, Philadelphia IS an East Coast city - it is not the Midwest. In addition, although tourism is a major industry here, it is not an "international" city like LA, NYC, or Paris. The scale is smaller and therein lies its charm. It is unfortunate to hear that some did not have a good experience here. Like any other large city, you need to know where to go and what to avoid to give yourself the best chance of a nice visit. I'm sure on a bad day it can be ugly and rude. Hopefully the following might help you enjoy our city.

Center City Philadelphia is best experienced on foot. Cabs are inexpensive but aren't as readily available as in NYC. Highlights include Old City (Independence Hall, Liberty Bell, Elfreth's Alley - especially cool on the "First Friday" of each month when all the galleries stay open late), the Art Museum and Boathouse Row area, Rittenhouse Square, Pat's Steaks/South Street if you must eat those things but go to Delessandro's if you have a car. The young and adventurous might enjoy world class jazz at Ortlieb's Jazz Haus (no cover usually, but take a cab) and then go for a brew at the Standard Tap or 700 club around the corner. Stroll down Pine Street from 20th or so East to Old City and check out the antique shops. Check out the Reading Terminal market for lunch and then Chinatown for dinner. For avant-garde theater and music look at the Painted Bride art center. If you have wheels, drive out Kelly Drive to Lincoln Drive and go for lunch in Chestnut Hill, a walk in Morris Arboretum or Valley Green, and then Manayunk for dinner. For kids, the Franklin Institute and Academy of Natural Sciences are a must. The Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts is an amazing building and often has interesting art exhibits. If you have time, make an appointment with the Barnes Foundation for a unique art experience.

Areas to avoid are: Broad Street north of say Spring Garden (our Harlem), the area between Penn's campus and the Main Line, and definitely Camden NJ. South Philadelphia (South of South Street) is the Italian section and can be inhospitable in places, especially to non-whites. The Northeast doesn't offer much for visitors, except for Tocanelli's Pizza, and limited time is better spent elsewhere.

If you come to Philly, you may experience a charming colonial city that was the center of American government and industry through the 1800's before those roles were filled by Washington DC and NYC. The recent tenure of mayor Ed Rendell and a stronger economy has led to a revitalization of the city that has me and many other former residents coming home to roost. Happy trails!

Since this is at the top, I figure it's a good time to post my view. I love cities and I've been in many of them, particularly in Europe, and Philadelphia in the springtime still has the capacity to make me catch my breath in wonder at its beauty, still has some of the best street food (not to mention restaurants) ever, and still has a cultural scene that is alive to complement its unique historical position. Are there "bad" parts of Philadelphia? Of course, but even the North Philadelphia blight areas have residents that have done major aesthetic improvements and added gardens and so forth. It is indeed a city of neighborhoods, and I feel owes much to the early influence of the Society of Friends. It's not a hotshot place, but one that you can easily learn to love when you explore it at ground level.

I drove home from work last week and was amazed again at the beauty of the city. Thousands of daffodils are blooming along Delaware Ave., the cherry blossoms have come out on South St. and in another few weeks the Azaleas behind the Art Museum will be beautiful. If you live within driving distance of Philly this is the perfect time to visit. And if you are a film fan, the Philadelphia Festival of World Cinema begins the end of this month (I think it's one of the biggest film festivals on the east coast if not the country). Yes, we may be a working class city but we aren't all Philistines!

My daughter wants to attend summer camp at University of the Arts. What type of area is it in? Will she be safe there?

U of the Arts is on Broad and Pine streets and is in a busy downtown section. At night there are theaters nearby so there are people out and about. I wouldn't worry about safety there. It's a fun and upbeat part of town.

Philadelphia is rather ugly, but there is history there and there are some things to do and see. My vote for ugliest city has got to be Cincinnati. Talk about an eyesore.

The Q&A

Ugly? Yes(on the highways), No(on the streets)
Unsafe? No
Managable? Quite
Rude? Yes
Why so rude? Catholic Guilt(see Boston)
Dirty? No
Boring? No(in the day), Yes(at night)
Cheap? Yes(for the Northeast at least)
Good Food? Yes(and I'm not talking about cheesesteaks)
Good Public Transit? Mainly Yes
Easy to Drive? No
Facist Smoking Laws? No
Is South Jersey really dull and ugly and the Main Line overpriced and yuppifed? Oh Yes
Better then St. Louis? Yes
Better then Chicago? No

Having been to all the major cities on the east coast and midwest, and also working in NYC for two years, I'd have to say that I think Philadelphia is actually one of the best cities to visit. It has a wonderful center city area that is vibrant. It is very easily walkable and safe. I cannot say the same for Manhatten if you wander outside of the few "high traffic" areas of the island. That's scary. Boston is a nice town, but actually isn't as friendly as Philly in my experience. Anyway, I would pick a visit to Philly over most cities in the country. Sounds like someone has an axe to grind.

I lived in Los Angeles for over 10 years. You hardly ever see anyone looking up to the sky. Its different here..you have to look up to see the beauty of Philly. It starts with the rooftop embellishments...continues to the countless church steeples and ends in the sky that often resembles an old english oil painting. Only one thing I dont love about this place. It often has that peculiar smell..a mix of young mice and fresh fruit.

I think most US cities are kind of "ugly"; at least, they all look the same (with a few exceptions): a bunch of high buildings, no trees, deserted streets at night. But I have to say that Atlanta was an even bigger disappointment than Philadelphia (and I stayed in the supposedly nice part of town). I had expected more, especially compared to other Olympic cities!

I used to visit Philly a lot in the late 80s to see my best friend, who was at Curtis Institute of Music near Rittenhouse Square. I loved every visit.

We walked all over the city, in some of the good and some of the bad. Nobody ever bothered us. True, it's an older city and has its issues. But I thought it was great. Museums, Independence Hall, Penn's Landing...a little bit of everything.

And Ingrid, I'm sorry you didn't like Atlanta. But was Lake Placid an "Olympic" city?

Atlanta is much smaller than Philly and not nearly as old. It's true we have a lot of problems but it is not the hell hole you might believe it to be.

Gary, Indiana is the ugliest AND it smells! Detroit is next. A handful are close, and St. Louis, Philadelphia, and Baltimore (minus the harbor that makes up 1 percent of the city) are right up there.

Ingrid- No trees in Philly?! You're kidding right? Try getting out of your hotel. The cherry trees on South St. are beautiful in the Spring. Or walk around any of the squares, e.g. Rittenhouse, Washington.

Geez...talk about an old thread! Looks like someone resurrected this one to get people angry! And it looks like it is working too!