Dressing Down of America?
Apr 26th, 2008, 06:21 AM
#41
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I would never have a "a huge and very expensive formal" wedding.
I am much more interested in the marraige than the wedding.
But that example is a very different thing than going out to a restruant for dinner and getting upset because someone is dressed differently than you are.
I am much more interested in the marraige than the wedding.
But that example is a very different thing than going out to a restruant for dinner and getting upset because someone is dressed differently than you are.
Apr 26th, 2008, 06:21 AM
#42
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Hmm...it seems that some people are equating casual clothing with being "unwashed" or dirty in some way. I think that those are two different issues. Just because someone is wearing jeans doesn't mean that they haven't taken the time to shower. Personally, I don't mind getting dressed up to eat at a nice place. My husband is not as enthused about it and, if when we arrive, there are people dressed more casually, he uses that as an argument that I should not have encouraged him to wear a tie. However, it doesn't particularly bother me to see someone at the next table wearing jeans. I would however, not enjoy it if the person had strong body odor, from not showering because that would interfere with the taste of my meal. In the same vein, I would also not be pleased if a well dressed woman wearing tons of obnoxious fragrance were seated next to me either.
Apr 26th, 2008, 06:31 AM
#43
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I have no problem at all with business casual or dressy casual - obviously the days of suits/ties for everyday wear are gone except in a few specific circumstances.
My problem is the DEFINITION of business casual. It does not include holey jeans, dirty sneakers, misshapen tees, or on women revealing tee shirts with cut off jeans. This attire is for your backyard (or the mall - if you chose to appear that way). But at work (in an office) the private bits should be fully covered, shirts should have collars and men's legs should be covered.
And yes, I did once tell a 19 year old summer intern to cover up when she came in wearing a low cut camisole and shorts - not knee length city shorts but the ones that cover only about 4" of thigh. She tried to tell me she had seen a photo of Paris Hilton in a similar outfit. I told her when she had $50 million and was boarding a friend's yacht she too could dress however she wants. But- not anyplace one of my clients could see her.
The problem was not the clothes themselves - the outfit was actually kind of cute and fit her - it just did NOT belong in the office. And she simply didn't get the idea of different rules of dress for different places.
My problem is the DEFINITION of business casual. It does not include holey jeans, dirty sneakers, misshapen tees, or on women revealing tee shirts with cut off jeans. This attire is for your backyard (or the mall - if you chose to appear that way). But at work (in an office) the private bits should be fully covered, shirts should have collars and men's legs should be covered.
And yes, I did once tell a 19 year old summer intern to cover up when she came in wearing a low cut camisole and shorts - not knee length city shorts but the ones that cover only about 4" of thigh. She tried to tell me she had seen a photo of Paris Hilton in a similar outfit. I told her when she had $50 million and was boarding a friend's yacht she too could dress however she wants. But- not anyplace one of my clients could see her.
The problem was not the clothes themselves - the outfit was actually kind of cute and fit her - it just did NOT belong in the office. And she simply didn't get the idea of different rules of dress for different places.
Apr 26th, 2008, 07:39 AM
#44
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I wonder if individual responses reflect (in part, if not entirely) whether someone considers dress to be an issue of good manners.
I do, but wasn't thinking particularly of manners when I posted this question.
I suppose I'm feeling very old fashioned but back in the dark ages, we were taught that there were rules of behavior (dress, too) that were NOT dictated by how one felt, but what was "right."
I know how corny that must sound to many...but I can't imagine going into a fine restaurant dressed very casually because that's just what I "felt like" at the time. Or because that's what I was more comfortable wearing.
My husband hasn't worn a tux in years and I can't remember the last time I had on a formal gown...so we don't attend formal events.
In all fairness, neither of us likes that brand of formality much, so we're actually pleasing ourselves. If something came along that mandated our presence, we'd suck it up and buy some new duds. But we'd NEVER consider going dressed less formally.
The only difference I see is with the degree...the principle is the same.
I do, but wasn't thinking particularly of manners when I posted this question.
I suppose I'm feeling very old fashioned but back in the dark ages, we were taught that there were rules of behavior (dress, too) that were NOT dictated by how one felt, but what was "right."
I know how corny that must sound to many...but I can't imagine going into a fine restaurant dressed very casually because that's just what I "felt like" at the time. Or because that's what I was more comfortable wearing.
My husband hasn't worn a tux in years and I can't remember the last time I had on a formal gown...so we don't attend formal events.
In all fairness, neither of us likes that brand of formality much, so we're actually pleasing ourselves. If something came along that mandated our presence, we'd suck it up and buy some new duds. But we'd NEVER consider going dressed less formally.
The only difference I see is with the degree...the principle is the same.
Apr 26th, 2008, 07:51 AM
#45
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Well, the real problem here is that people have in their minds what is "OK dress" to them. So while some are talking about "dressed down" being a nice shirt and slacks or dress jeans and a sweater instead of coat and tie, others are picturing shorts and t-shirts. And when people start saying "no limits" where do we picture the line being drawn? If jeans are fine, are torn jeans fine? If torn jeans are fine are dirty jeans fine? Etc.
Rich, I wasn't talking about "being dressed differently from you". And yes, I was going to the extreme here. I'll openly admit that. But I feel that if I went to a formal restaurant in shorts, flip flops, and t-shirt it would show just as much disrespect and lack of manners or good breeding as wearing that to a formal wedding. My point was that some people are clearly saying they absolutely are not bothered by ANYTHING that people around them wear. I really find THAT hard to imagine.
Rich, I wasn't talking about "being dressed differently from you". And yes, I was going to the extreme here. I'll openly admit that. But I feel that if I went to a formal restaurant in shorts, flip flops, and t-shirt it would show just as much disrespect and lack of manners or good breeding as wearing that to a formal wedding. My point was that some people are clearly saying they absolutely are not bothered by ANYTHING that people around them wear. I really find THAT hard to imagine.
Apr 26th, 2008, 07:54 AM
#46
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"For the life of me, I cannot understand why the dress or behavior of someone else could have the slightest impact on my enjoyment of a meal, concert or any other event."
It's called atmosphere. Going out to dinner for a special occasion only to have a person at the next at the next table wearing a ball cap, shorts and sneakers (which would be fine on a ten year old but not a fifty year old man) detracts from the atmosphere.
Apr 26th, 2008, 08:48 AM
#48
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"Dressing down" as you call it is simply evolutionary. The people from the late 1800s would consider no hats or gloves, women in pants, knee length skirts with ankles showing etc to be dressing down.
It might be that some of you remain "over dressed" for the era, rather than others being "dressed down".
Just a different way of looking at it.
It might be that some of you remain "over dressed" for the era, rather than others being "dressed down".
Just a different way of looking at it.
Apr 26th, 2008, 09:07 AM
#49
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I think it would be very enlightening if each poster's age on this thread was included. I'm inclined to think that those of us who grew up in a "dressier atmosphere" are older, and those of you who seem to think anything goes, anyplace you go are the younger set.
I'm afraid I agree with the OP and those who prefer to dress for specific occasions and wish others in attendance would too.
<<I'd personally rather see someone in lovely casual clothes than ugly dressy clothes>>
That is a very subjective point of view--what's ugly dress to you might be just the opposite for me, while your perception of lovely casual might strike me as not only inappropriate but ugly.
I'm afraid I agree with the OP and those who prefer to dress for specific occasions and wish others in attendance would too.
<<I'd personally rather see someone in lovely casual clothes than ugly dressy clothes>>
That is a very subjective point of view--what's ugly dress to you might be just the opposite for me, while your perception of lovely casual might strike me as not only inappropriate but ugly.
Apr 26th, 2008, 09:31 AM
#50
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I agree that there is a difference between "dressing down" and "dressing sloppily" or "looking dirty".
I have no problem with someone who is wearing jeans and and a clean t-shirt sitting next to me at a fancy restaurant. I would rather not sit next to someone who just finished cleaning out their garage and didn't "clean up" afterwards - wearing the same clothes with dirt caked on them, cobwebs in their hair, etc.
My Grandmother always taught me that it was rude to "overdress" for an occasion. If the occasion asked for a jacket and tie and you showed up in tails, then you were flaunting your superiority. If you didn't have a jacket and tie, then you should dress as closely to that level without surpassing it (perhaps a collared shirt with a nice sweater).
I wonder if that is part of the issue nowadays. For so long we've been told not to OVERdress that we feel uncomfortable and improper by doing so. However, with the dressing down in social settings, it's almost impossible to dress up without overdressing and so we turn our subconscious, internal feelings of dressing incorrectly onto our neighbors who are the cause for our appearance of overdressing.
I have no problem with someone who is wearing jeans and and a clean t-shirt sitting next to me at a fancy restaurant. I would rather not sit next to someone who just finished cleaning out their garage and didn't "clean up" afterwards - wearing the same clothes with dirt caked on them, cobwebs in their hair, etc.
My Grandmother always taught me that it was rude to "overdress" for an occasion. If the occasion asked for a jacket and tie and you showed up in tails, then you were flaunting your superiority. If you didn't have a jacket and tie, then you should dress as closely to that level without surpassing it (perhaps a collared shirt with a nice sweater).
I wonder if that is part of the issue nowadays. For so long we've been told not to OVERdress that we feel uncomfortable and improper by doing so. However, with the dressing down in social settings, it's almost impossible to dress up without overdressing and so we turn our subconscious, internal feelings of dressing incorrectly onto our neighbors who are the cause for our appearance of overdressing.
Apr 26th, 2008, 10:06 AM
#51
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Also the real problem with "rules" is that they don't allow for common sense. While some restaurants have a dress code of coat and tie for men, I don't know of any such guideline for women, so at our local coat and tie place, you'd often see women (a few years ago) sitting there in chilly weather in their nylon jogging suits. HUH? While their husbands had to be in coat and tie?
And I was with a small group one night at a place where the husband of our theatre costumer was refused admittance. He was wearing his birthday gift from his wife -- a Donna Karan $200 plus textured black silk shirt with high pointed collar and buttons down the front. But it had no sleeves (a fashion statement attempt from DKNY which never went over). So they refused him admission saying it was like a tank top since it had no sleeves. Yet the place was filled with guys in shorts and t-shirts. Go figure.
And I was with a small group one night at a place where the husband of our theatre costumer was refused admittance. He was wearing his birthday gift from his wife -- a Donna Karan $200 plus textured black silk shirt with high pointed collar and buttons down the front. But it had no sleeves (a fashion statement attempt from DKNY which never went over). So they refused him admission saying it was like a tank top since it had no sleeves. Yet the place was filled with guys in shorts and t-shirts. Go figure.
Apr 26th, 2008, 10:59 AM
#53
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I'm an under-dresser. I work in technology, but my customers are always in very dressy suits.
It is the culture of their business as casual is the culture of mine.
I get a few tsk tsk's from few jerks once in a while. My clothes are worn once then washed. I take a shower in the morning and a bath a night. I wash my hair every day. I wear make up. My shoes are new.
My nails are always manicured and I rarely show my feet. I never wear flip flops... though I don't see much difference between a good pair of flip flops and a 150.00 pair of sandals.
There is a HUGE difference between a slob and a person who wears very casual clothes.
I never see people who go from yard work to nice restaurants. I do see people in casual clothes everywhere and I say vive la difference... or however you spell it...
Friday I had a lunch appointment with a customer at a great sushi place here in Dallas. I wore my usual. Cotton cargo-type (no pockets) Capris, argyle sweater, Mary Janes, tiny earrings. My very formal customer, who ALWAYS dresses to the nines, showed up wearing her tasteful yoga outfit (pre work out)! I was shocked because I have never seen her dress down! She knew I would not judge her and it was a big leap of faith to meet me in that attire.
To me it meant that she was comfortable enough with me to be herself. She was more casual and her attitude was more casual. It was a productive, great lunch.
Oh, and I did NOT notice what anyone else in the room was wearing!
It is the culture of their business as casual is the culture of mine.
I get a few tsk tsk's from few jerks once in a while. My clothes are worn once then washed. I take a shower in the morning and a bath a night. I wash my hair every day. I wear make up. My shoes are new.
My nails are always manicured and I rarely show my feet. I never wear flip flops... though I don't see much difference between a good pair of flip flops and a 150.00 pair of sandals.
There is a HUGE difference between a slob and a person who wears very casual clothes.
I never see people who go from yard work to nice restaurants. I do see people in casual clothes everywhere and I say vive la difference... or however you spell it...
Friday I had a lunch appointment with a customer at a great sushi place here in Dallas. I wore my usual. Cotton cargo-type (no pockets) Capris, argyle sweater, Mary Janes, tiny earrings. My very formal customer, who ALWAYS dresses to the nines, showed up wearing her tasteful yoga outfit (pre work out)! I was shocked because I have never seen her dress down! She knew I would not judge her and it was a big leap of faith to meet me in that attire.
To me it meant that she was comfortable enough with me to be herself. She was more casual and her attitude was more casual. It was a productive, great lunch.
Oh, and I did NOT notice what anyone else in the room was wearing!
Apr 26th, 2008, 11:49 AM
#54
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I was a young teen in the early 70s....lived in Queens, and whenever we went "into the City" (meaning Manhattan), my Mom made me DRESS UP. Can you imagine how I loved that...(not)...dressing up to go into the city when everyone else my age was wearing their frayed jeans, love beads, and peace-sign patches sewn onto their butts?? 
Perhaps I'm still "rebelling", (at age 52), but I absolutely love not having to dress up....and yes, others may not approve, but I have to dress up for work, and I enjoy doing my own thing on my own time. I hadn't been to a Broadway show for 30 years, and due to time constraints, I ended up going to a show last month in my blue jeans.....others like me were in their jeans, and others were in their beautiful party frocks.....I appreciated both modes of dress.
Perhaps I'm still "rebelling", (at age 52), but I absolutely love not having to dress up....and yes, others may not approve, but I have to dress up for work, and I enjoy doing my own thing on my own time. I hadn't been to a Broadway show for 30 years, and due to time constraints, I ended up going to a show last month in my blue jeans.....others like me were in their jeans, and others were in their beautiful party frocks.....I appreciated both modes of dress.
Apr 26th, 2008, 12:27 PM
#56
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I work in the Silicon Valley Corporate office of a Global high-tech company. It was not long ago that bow blouses, suits, pantyhose, and high heel pumps were everyday things. Then casual Friday turned into casual everyday. The only ties I see are on interviewees.
I love the current state of affairs. Gone are the days of spending a fortune on pantyhose and sore feet. I feel like I get so much more done when I don't dread having to walk to the other side of the building again. I do admit I'm fighting a battle with employees who think shorts are appropriate. Even on very hot days, the building is air conditioned.
I love the current state of affairs. Gone are the days of spending a fortune on pantyhose and sore feet. I feel like I get so much more done when I don't dread having to walk to the other side of the building again. I do admit I'm fighting a battle with employees who think shorts are appropriate. Even on very hot days, the building is air conditioned.
Apr 26th, 2008, 12:39 PM
#57
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I asked a friend who plays with a major symphony does she or the other players care what they audience wears. She laughed, if they can see them at all, they could care less.
The respect is to the music and the players. Listening to the piece attentively but quietly with an appreciation of the notes and craft that is respectful. Even if you are sitting there in your underwear.
I am a substance over form person and if the form relfects the substance, that is fine but not the point.
The respect is to the music and the players. Listening to the piece attentively but quietly with an appreciation of the notes and craft that is respectful. Even if you are sitting there in your underwear.
I am a substance over form person and if the form relfects the substance, that is fine but not the point.
