AIR B&B in NYC..a Cautionary Tale from NYTimes
Dec 6th, 2012, 04:21 PM
#41
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As for a devilish plot by NYC hoteliers...
It doesn't have to be any kind of "devilish plot", it could be just your run-of-the-mill influence buying by one industry.
If hotel occupancy is at an all time high of 90% - do you suppose it would be that high if a good percentage of that business were taken away by airbnb renters?
Or that these hotels could keep charging those outrageous hotel rates where $200 in a Motel-6 type of room isn't uncommon?
It doesn't have to be any kind of "devilish plot", it could be just your run-of-the-mill influence buying by one industry.
If hotel occupancy is at an all time high of 90% - do you suppose it would be that high if a good percentage of that business were taken away by airbnb renters?
Or that these hotels could keep charging those outrageous hotel rates where $200 in a Motel-6 type of room isn't uncommon?
Dec 6th, 2012, 07:45 PM
#42
I know for a fact we couldn't have afforded to stay in NYC for three weeks if we stayed at a hotel. There are probably those of you who think, well if they can't afford to stay in a hotel they should stay home. However there must be thousands of people like us who have family living in New York and would like to be able to see their relatives now and again.
Dec 7th, 2012, 01:27 AM
#43
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No one says that AirB&B does not have advantages both for renters and rentees. It does: income for the first, lower rates for the latter.
It is just illegal unless the renter is present in the apartment with you.
If you want to take the risk, go ahead. We do it in Paris all the time, where similar laws apply. But recognize that there are risks.
This is the last thing I have to say on this topic.
It is just illegal unless the renter is present in the apartment with you.
If you want to take the risk, go ahead. We do it in Paris all the time, where similar laws apply. But recognize that there are risks.
This is the last thing I have to say on this topic.
Dec 7th, 2012, 08:08 AM
#44
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I find it extremely hard to believe that a large percentage of visitors are interested in staying in random stranger's spare bedrooms.
It's not something I would ever consider, would not work for business travelers and would be unacceptable to many tourists - who want the privacy and support that hotel staff provide.
But - it really isn't a matter of what I want - or anyone else wants.
The laws are what they are. And the risks of not following them are what they are. And people who are caught - or scammed - have no recourse - or reason to complain.
It's not something I would ever consider, would not work for business travelers and would be unacceptable to many tourists - who want the privacy and support that hotel staff provide.
But - it really isn't a matter of what I want - or anyone else wants.
The laws are what they are. And the risks of not following them are what they are. And people who are caught - or scammed - have no recourse - or reason to complain.
Dec 7th, 2012, 08:11 AM
#45
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>>
Ditto. I do think many visitors would like the convenience of an apartment, however, I think the ratio of visitors who would rent an apartment (even if legal) to visitors who would stay in a hotel is very very small. I also don't really think the illegality of short-term rentals is preventing many individuals who would rent an apartment from doing so -- see Ackislander's post about Paris. I would guess most visitors don't even know it's illegal.
Ditto. I do think many visitors would like the convenience of an apartment, however, I think the ratio of visitors who would rent an apartment (even if legal) to visitors who would stay in a hotel is very very small. I also don't really think the illegality of short-term rentals is preventing many individuals who would rent an apartment from doing so -- see Ackislander's post about Paris. I would guess most visitors don't even know it's illegal.
Dec 7th, 2012, 10:14 AM
#46
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There seems to be a broadbased interpretation of what is "illegal".
If what Ackislander has said is correct in terms of the NYC ordinance, then it is NOT illegal for someone to rent out a spare bedroom so long as they are staying in the apartment/condo themselves.
I have no idea what the Parisian law provides specifically, as I suspect that sf7307 doesn't either - so really what is legal or "illegal" in Paris is still an open question.
Most all cities have ordinances governing rentals. In the US non-discrimination is up at the top of the forbidden no-nos but does this apply to airbnb rentals even if airbnb rentals are allowed in some cities?
Moreover, B&B owners also advertise on airbnb. How do you know that it isn't a B&B owner who may not be staying in the same apartment/condo but is doing a very "legal" business?
It's not something I would ever consider, would not work for business travelers and would be unacceptable to many tourists - who want the privacy and support that hotel staff provide.
airbnb is not designed for business travelers, who usually want to be able to check in and out at their convenience and who usually have corporate accounts at specific hotel chains, so they are encouraged to use hotels in those chains and no others.
Some "tourists" like my BIL who prefers a specific hotel in NYC because it's steps away from a metro stop. He wouldn't even stay with his own relative, who will let him sleep in his child's bedroom and have full use of his spacious apartment, because my BIL has to walk a couple of blocks from the nearest metro stop. airbnb isn't for people like my BIL either.
But, just because airbnb is not designed for certain kinds of travelers and isn't for everyone, doesn't mean that it can't be a rewarding experience for others.
I find it extremely hard to believe that a large percentage of visitors are interested in staying in random stranger's spare bedrooms.
You may find it strange, but there are a large percentage of visitors who have used airbnb and will continue to do so. When airbnb was started in august 2008, it had one booking per day. By June, 2012, it had one booking per every two seconds. airbnb is just starting to grow, especially overseas. Obviously there are a lot of visitors who enjoy using airbnb and there will be plenty of new users with each day. It's not just the attractive room rates, it's also the wonderful friendships that can develop, the terrific breakfasts that sometimes come with the room, and any number of other benefits that fuel airbnb's growth.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/19/air...okings-global/
If what Ackislander has said is correct in terms of the NYC ordinance, then it is NOT illegal for someone to rent out a spare bedroom so long as they are staying in the apartment/condo themselves.
I have no idea what the Parisian law provides specifically, as I suspect that sf7307 doesn't either - so really what is legal or "illegal" in Paris is still an open question.
Most all cities have ordinances governing rentals. In the US non-discrimination is up at the top of the forbidden no-nos but does this apply to airbnb rentals even if airbnb rentals are allowed in some cities?
Moreover, B&B owners also advertise on airbnb. How do you know that it isn't a B&B owner who may not be staying in the same apartment/condo but is doing a very "legal" business?
It's not something I would ever consider, would not work for business travelers and would be unacceptable to many tourists - who want the privacy and support that hotel staff provide.
airbnb is not designed for business travelers, who usually want to be able to check in and out at their convenience and who usually have corporate accounts at specific hotel chains, so they are encouraged to use hotels in those chains and no others.
Some "tourists" like my BIL who prefers a specific hotel in NYC because it's steps away from a metro stop. He wouldn't even stay with his own relative, who will let him sleep in his child's bedroom and have full use of his spacious apartment, because my BIL has to walk a couple of blocks from the nearest metro stop. airbnb isn't for people like my BIL either.
But, just because airbnb is not designed for certain kinds of travelers and isn't for everyone, doesn't mean that it can't be a rewarding experience for others.
I find it extremely hard to believe that a large percentage of visitors are interested in staying in random stranger's spare bedrooms.
You may find it strange, but there are a large percentage of visitors who have used airbnb and will continue to do so. When airbnb was started in august 2008, it had one booking per day. By June, 2012, it had one booking per every two seconds. airbnb is just starting to grow, especially overseas. Obviously there are a lot of visitors who enjoy using airbnb and there will be plenty of new users with each day. It's not just the attractive room rates, it's also the wonderful friendships that can develop, the terrific breakfasts that sometimes come with the room, and any number of other benefits that fuel airbnb's growth.
http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/19/air...okings-global/
Dec 7th, 2012, 10:42 AM
#48
We were is a studio apartment, so not in a spare bedroom. It was advertised on VRBO and AirBnB. The owner rents out several apartments. From what has been said here, it seems it would be illegal, but when I e-mailed her (after the event) she said the one we stayed in was legal.
Dec 7th, 2012, 01:04 PM
#49
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I give up.
People will believe what they want.
And do what they want.
It's their decision as the risks they are willing to take - being reported by a neighbor or doorman - or perhaps scammed.
I am satisfied that we are keeping tourists out of our co-op - so I don't have to deal with the problem directly.
People will believe what they want.
And do what they want.
It's their decision as the risks they are willing to take - being reported by a neighbor or doorman - or perhaps scammed.
I am satisfied that we are keeping tourists out of our co-op - so I don't have to deal with the problem directly.
Dec 7th, 2012, 03:06 PM
#50
I know my friend's NYC building management just caught a condo owner renting out the apt through Craig's List and stopped it. It is a very nice secure building i a hghly desirable location; having assorted strangers walking through it compromises all the residents who paid big bucks to buy in a secure place.
Dec 7th, 2012, 03:45 PM
#51
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I give up too.
Because this whole thing is so illogical and almost paranoid in some sense.
Murders in NYC are at an all-time low in the last FIFTY years, as is most crime, which tends to still happen in the poorer neighborhoods; not exactly the neighborhoods where a majority of airbnb rentals are located. Of the ten major cities in the US, NYC has the lowest crime rate.
So, all this stuff about meth labs, noisy partiers, and being afraid of every stranger that crosses your condo/apartment doorstep I think of as the same kind of illogcal paranoia as when I visited a friend in NYC and she had SIX locks on her front door. (Still shaking head in disbelief)
To my thinking, there's a greater chance of being attacked/killed in the NY subway than from an airbnb guest staying in another apartment/condo in the same building.
But, bully for you, nytraveler, if you are working hard to keep all away airbnb guests from your coop.
Because this whole thing is so illogical and almost paranoid in some sense.
Murders in NYC are at an all-time low in the last FIFTY years, as is most crime, which tends to still happen in the poorer neighborhoods; not exactly the neighborhoods where a majority of airbnb rentals are located. Of the ten major cities in the US, NYC has the lowest crime rate.
So, all this stuff about meth labs, noisy partiers, and being afraid of every stranger that crosses your condo/apartment doorstep I think of as the same kind of illogcal paranoia as when I visited a friend in NYC and she had SIX locks on her front door. (Still shaking head in disbelief)
To my thinking, there's a greater chance of being attacked/killed in the NY subway than from an airbnb guest staying in another apartment/condo in the same building.
But, bully for you, nytraveler, if you are working hard to keep all away airbnb guests from your coop.
Dec 8th, 2012, 04:21 AM
#52
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It's not me. It's clearly part of the co-op laws - and that is true of almost every co-op. And as a member of the board of the co-op - this is one of my responsibilities.
And I'm not afraid of being murdered in my bed or someone setting up a meth lab - although the partying is a real possibility. I just don't want strangers wandering around my private residence. None of the owners do.
And we did succeed in convincing one owner, who continually (4 separate times) sublet her apartment without board knowledge or approval, to sell her apartment rather than leave it sitting empty. (Three of her subletters - all for periods of 6 months or more - were fine neighbors, although they had not gone through the approval process. The fourth set of tenants were two young guys who were loud at all hours, refused to deal with their trash properly and so attracted vermin, left ground floor windows ungated and open - allowing thieves into the building - and were rude, nasty and unacceptable neighbors. We ended up having them evicted and changed the building locks so the owner no longer had access and couldn't sublet again. (Rules allow owners to sublet for up to two years - once - but with board approval of the proposed subletters. After that owners have to either occupy the apartment, leave it empty or sell it. She now lives in CA full time and finally gave in and sold the apartment.)
And I'm not afraid of being murdered in my bed or someone setting up a meth lab - although the partying is a real possibility. I just don't want strangers wandering around my private residence. None of the owners do.
And we did succeed in convincing one owner, who continually (4 separate times) sublet her apartment without board knowledge or approval, to sell her apartment rather than leave it sitting empty. (Three of her subletters - all for periods of 6 months or more - were fine neighbors, although they had not gone through the approval process. The fourth set of tenants were two young guys who were loud at all hours, refused to deal with their trash properly and so attracted vermin, left ground floor windows ungated and open - allowing thieves into the building - and were rude, nasty and unacceptable neighbors. We ended up having them evicted and changed the building locks so the owner no longer had access and couldn't sublet again. (Rules allow owners to sublet for up to two years - once - but with board approval of the proposed subletters. After that owners have to either occupy the apartment, leave it empty or sell it. She now lives in CA full time and finally gave in and sold the apartment.)
Dec 8th, 2012, 07:05 AM
#53
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nelsonian,
Did you really expect the apartment owner to tell you that she had rented you a place that was illegal?
You did something wrong. Hope you believe what these NYC experts have told you and won't do it again.
Did you really expect the apartment owner to tell you that she had rented you a place that was illegal?
You did something wrong. Hope you believe what these NYC experts have told you and won't do it again.
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:09 AM
#54
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Will these "NYC experts" please provide a link to the NY ordinance in question, so that we can determine once and for all what is "legal" and what is "illegal"?
Many thanks.
IMHO, I don't believe nelsonian did anything "wrong". None of us know the true situation in her case - maybe the owner had gotten the proper license to rent out her place. This is just jumping to conclusions with no supporting facts.
Otherwise, nytraveler, in your situation I would have done the same thing. However, you are describing an apples and oranges situation. Per your own account, the four rentals were for "6 months or more". There are VERY FEW airbnb rentals that are that long. I once made a reservation which was accepted at first and then later the owner asked if we could come to a different arrangement, since someone wanted to rent her spare bedroom for 3 months and my dates were in the middle of that 3 months. So, we came to a very amicable different arrangement. Something like this may happen on a rare occasion, but most airbnb rentals are for much, much shorter periods.
Honestly, have any of you local "experts" stayed in either the Marriott on Times Square or the Grand Hyatt? Do you know just how NOISY it is in either one of those locations?
Many thanks.
IMHO, I don't believe nelsonian did anything "wrong". None of us know the true situation in her case - maybe the owner had gotten the proper license to rent out her place. This is just jumping to conclusions with no supporting facts.
Otherwise, nytraveler, in your situation I would have done the same thing. However, you are describing an apples and oranges situation. Per your own account, the four rentals were for "6 months or more". There are VERY FEW airbnb rentals that are that long. I once made a reservation which was accepted at first and then later the owner asked if we could come to a different arrangement, since someone wanted to rent her spare bedroom for 3 months and my dates were in the middle of that 3 months. So, we came to a very amicable different arrangement. Something like this may happen on a rare occasion, but most airbnb rentals are for much, much shorter periods.
Honestly, have any of you local "experts" stayed in either the Marriott on Times Square or the Grand Hyatt? Do you know just how NOISY it is in either one of those locations?
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:13 AM
#55
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This is a Fodor's thread that came up via Google. It has lots of good info -- and to my surprise, has no replies. There's a link to the 2010 law, but I'm not sure if it's the finalized version, as it seems to be a marked up document.
http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...nt-rentals.cfm
http://www.fodors.com/community/unit...nt-rentals.cfm
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:18 AM
#56
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I only skimmed it quickly, but the distinction is between Class A and Class B dwellings (as the NYT link in the thread pointed out).
Near the end of the nyc.gov document, you get some exemptions for Class A dwellings. For example "natural person" are permitted to be in Class A dwellings for fewer than 30 days (see (B) on the penultimate page) -- the key is that "no monetary compensation" is paid.
Near the end of the nyc.gov document, you get some exemptions for Class A dwellings. For example "natural person" are permitted to be in Class A dwellings for fewer than 30 days (see (B) on the penultimate page) -- the key is that "no monetary compensation" is paid.
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:21 AM
#57
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I haven't followed this thread that closely, but if nelsonian rented from a building that was classified as Class B, it'd have been legal (if I understand this correctly).
Basically, not all short-term rentals are illegal. And the law doesn't say that you can't have people in your apartment if you're away (see above).
Basically, not all short-term rentals are illegal. And the law doesn't say that you can't have people in your apartment if you're away (see above).
Dec 8th, 2012, 08:47 AM
#58
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To answer the question of why people want to stay in someone's spare room. That is what traditional B&Bs used to be, especially in places like Ireland. They were not the fancy, commercial enterprises they are today in the US. While I enjoy a great hotel, staying in a family B&B (or even someone's apartment as we used to do in NYC before I knew about the laws) is a great way of meeting local people and getting a sense of local life and culture. Sometimes there are cats, kids or a dog around. Sometimes the host shows you around or invites you to share a family meal. Sometimes there is no good hotel in the area you want to visit.
When I lived in Germany, tourist places used to find families for my family to stay with. We stayed several days with a family in Bavaria, another time on a farm in the North, and in the Netherlands where my little ones were treated like family. My kids helped with the animals, rodes horses, etc.
I stayed once at a B&B in Bath where all the "guests" shared a communal table and talked of the plans for the day, etc. Great fun meeting people from other countries.
Years ago, I stayed with an "old" lady in NYC in a gorgeous apartment overlooking the Hudson. She and her DH bought the place when they were first married, raised the kids there, etc. She had lived there over 40 years, her only home as an adult. Husband was dead. It was safe for her and she wanted to keep space for children and grandchildren who visited often, but was finding it hard to keep up with condo fees and taxes. She took people only through word of mouth, hosting mostly parents of friends of her Son - absolutely no advertising. Perhaps there were laws against it then (20+ years ago). I don't know. I think it would be illegal now, even though she was there, because the owners' association probably has laws against it.
It always made sense to me, but I can see the issues. Too bad compromise can't be worked out because it is nice doing this in Europe.
When I lived in Germany, tourist places used to find families for my family to stay with. We stayed several days with a family in Bavaria, another time on a farm in the North, and in the Netherlands where my little ones were treated like family. My kids helped with the animals, rodes horses, etc.
I stayed once at a B&B in Bath where all the "guests" shared a communal table and talked of the plans for the day, etc. Great fun meeting people from other countries.
Years ago, I stayed with an "old" lady in NYC in a gorgeous apartment overlooking the Hudson. She and her DH bought the place when they were first married, raised the kids there, etc. She had lived there over 40 years, her only home as an adult. Husband was dead. It was safe for her and she wanted to keep space for children and grandchildren who visited often, but was finding it hard to keep up with condo fees and taxes. She took people only through word of mouth, hosting mostly parents of friends of her Son - absolutely no advertising. Perhaps there were laws against it then (20+ years ago). I don't know. I think it would be illegal now, even though she was there, because the owners' association probably has laws against it.
It always made sense to me, but I can see the issues. Too bad compromise can't be worked out because it is nice doing this in Europe.
Dec 8th, 2012, 11:18 AM
#59
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Go over to Trip Advisor' New York City Forum You will find Top Questions about New York City on the upper right side. Click on Why are Vacation Apartment Rentals a Bad Idea in NYC. It has a pretty good explanation.
Dec 8th, 2012, 12:26 PM
#60
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If she's been living there - it's not a condo - it's a co-op. And there is no Owner's Association. It's a legal corporation, the tenants of the apartments are share holders in the corporation (number of shares depending on the size and location of the apartment), the members of the corporation have to elect officers each year (Pres, VP, Treas and Sec as well as - oftne - a couple of other board members at large) you are required to have an annual board meeting and the managing agent has to issue an annual report with complete financial disclosure.
When you buy into the building you sign a series of documents, governing the corporation as well as rules regarding living arrangements - everything from size of pets to hours for parties and your responsibility for the actions of any guests you bring into the building.
I'm sure she knew what she was doing was wrong - and just went ahead and did it anyway. And as long as she was subtle and none of her "friends" caused problems it would be OK. But in most co-ops, repeated offenses would be cause for sizable fines, and eventually, termination of the lease (in effect eviction).
And I think you would need a NY State attorney with detailed knowledge of the real estate laws. But, in essence - if you live in a commercial building (not the owner of a two-family house renting out the other half - which doesn't exist in Manhattan anyway) you should not be renting out part of your apartment short-term. And to rent part long-term - you need to have the person added to you lease by the landlord, which the landlord may well allow. But it is extremely unlikely a rental tenant would be allowed to sublet for a longer period - since the landlord would rather charge them for breaking the lease and then rent it to someone else at a higher rate due to the allowable vacancy increase.
When you buy into the building you sign a series of documents, governing the corporation as well as rules regarding living arrangements - everything from size of pets to hours for parties and your responsibility for the actions of any guests you bring into the building.
I'm sure she knew what she was doing was wrong - and just went ahead and did it anyway. And as long as she was subtle and none of her "friends" caused problems it would be OK. But in most co-ops, repeated offenses would be cause for sizable fines, and eventually, termination of the lease (in effect eviction).
And I think you would need a NY State attorney with detailed knowledge of the real estate laws. But, in essence - if you live in a commercial building (not the owner of a two-family house renting out the other half - which doesn't exist in Manhattan anyway) you should not be renting out part of your apartment short-term. And to rent part long-term - you need to have the person added to you lease by the landlord, which the landlord may well allow. But it is extremely unlikely a rental tenant would be allowed to sublet for a longer period - since the landlord would rather charge them for breaking the lease and then rent it to someone else at a higher rate due to the allowable vacancy increase.
