AIR B&B in NYC..a Cautionary Tale from NYTimes
Dec 3rd, 2012, 09:58 AM
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AIR B&B in NYC..a Cautionary Tale from NYTimes
Dec 3rd, 2012, 05:51 PM
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From the article:
And that law says you cannot rent out single-family homes or apartments, or rooms in them, for less than 30 days unless you are living in the home at the same time. [bolding mine]
Does this mean that as long as the NY family is living in the apartment, it can rent out one room for one/more nights?
And that law says you cannot rent out single-family homes or apartments, or rooms in them, for less than 30 days unless you are living in the home at the same time. [bolding mine]
Does this mean that as long as the NY family is living in the apartment, it can rent out one room for one/more nights?
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:22 PM
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"Does this mean that as long as the NY family is living in the apartment, it can rent out one room for one/more nights?"
Well, who is to say that these "renters" aren't "friends"?
Actually I suppose this same rhetorical question applies even if the person who is renting is not in the apartment. Are they prevented from leaving their keys with friends when they are away on a trip so their friends can stay in the apartment?
I saw the article a few days ago and thought the punishment was quite harsh. But now that I think about it, can't people get around it somehow (as above)?
Well, who is to say that these "renters" aren't "friends"?
Actually I suppose this same rhetorical question applies even if the person who is renting is not in the apartment. Are they prevented from leaving their keys with friends when they are away on a trip so their friends can stay in the apartment?
I saw the article a few days ago and thought the punishment was quite harsh. But now that I think about it, can't people get around it somehow (as above)?
Dec 3rd, 2012, 06:54 PM
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"And that law says you cannot rent out single-family homes or apartments, or rooms in them, for less than 30 days unless you are living in the home at the same time. [bolding mine]
Does this mean that as long as the NY family is living in the apartment, it can rent out one room for one/more nights?"
Yes, but...
The NYC law, (on the books for a long time but redefined and being enforced more) is just one thing that disallows most situations.
Assuming the situation you mention, it would probably be allowed IF not otherwise prohibited. So what else could prohibit it?
The landlord --if you are a renter like the guy in the article.
The co-op or condo board if you live in one of those other kinds of buildings. Very few would allow these situations.
So between the outright illegal according to NYC law and the ones that are not allowed by the building and its owners, there are very few "legal' situations left.
People who own an entire building could theoretically allow someone to rent out a room while they are living there. But with the price of NYC real estate, it's unlikely. Plus as the person staying there, you have no way of knowing if the building is "safe" according to fire laws, or whether the person you're renting from has proper insurance in case of problems.
So, as a practical matter. it can't be done legally here. You may agree or disagree with the laws or their reasons, but they do exist
Does this mean that as long as the NY family is living in the apartment, it can rent out one room for one/more nights?"
Yes, but...
The NYC law, (on the books for a long time but redefined and being enforced more) is just one thing that disallows most situations.
Assuming the situation you mention, it would probably be allowed IF not otherwise prohibited. So what else could prohibit it?
The landlord --if you are a renter like the guy in the article.
The co-op or condo board if you live in one of those other kinds of buildings. Very few would allow these situations.
So between the outright illegal according to NYC law and the ones that are not allowed by the building and its owners, there are very few "legal' situations left.
People who own an entire building could theoretically allow someone to rent out a room while they are living there. But with the price of NYC real estate, it's unlikely. Plus as the person staying there, you have no way of knowing if the building is "safe" according to fire laws, or whether the person you're renting from has proper insurance in case of problems.
So, as a practical matter. it can't be done legally here. You may agree or disagree with the laws or their reasons, but they do exist
Dec 4th, 2012, 02:55 AM
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There are quite a few rentals available in single-family-owned townhouses, which are presumably legal. I know 2 sets of owners who do this--one in the East Village and one in Harlem. I posted a link here for one of these apartments (in West Harlem) last year, but will not do so again since I got so much nasty feedback from one particcular poster here who all but accused me of shilling for the owners. But a search on any of the large rental sites will find quite a few offerings, particularly in Harlem townhouses.
Dec 4th, 2012, 06:58 AM
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While it may not be illegal for the tenant to rent out a spare room while still living there - it is extremely likely that
1) if it is a rental it's not allowed by the lease and the renter can be evicted (landlords are always looking for ways to evict current tenants from many apartment that are rent stabilized so they can raise the rent)
2) if it is a condo or a co-op - a huge number of buildings - the by laws most probably do not allow this - and the owner of the apartment can be fined - or forced to sell if they continue to rent against the corporation rules
As for people renting a room in their private house - yes, there are some of those. I would not say quite a few - but in that case one would need to determine that the person you are subletting from is actually the owner of the townhouse.
1) if it is a rental it's not allowed by the lease and the renter can be evicted (landlords are always looking for ways to evict current tenants from many apartment that are rent stabilized so they can raise the rent)
2) if it is a condo or a co-op - a huge number of buildings - the by laws most probably do not allow this - and the owner of the apartment can be fined - or forced to sell if they continue to rent against the corporation rules
As for people renting a room in their private house - yes, there are some of those. I would not say quite a few - but in that case one would need to determine that the person you are subletting from is actually the owner of the townhouse.
Dec 4th, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Apparently, this guy went away and didn't stay around to hear his renter's snores - and that's a no-no under NY laws.
It's one thing if a long-term renter violates the rules set forth by the condo association or apartment owner.
It's a totally different thing for a city to pass ordinances forbidding one night rentals. This smacks of concessions made to big hotel businesses.
It's one thing if a long-term renter violates the rules set forth by the condo association or apartment owner.
It's a totally different thing for a city to pass ordinances forbidding one night rentals. This smacks of concessions made to big hotel businesses.
Dec 4th, 2012, 10:54 AM
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"This smacks of concessions made to big hotel businesses."
I completely agree. And have felt that it was the lobbying of the hotel/hospitality industry that lead to such severe crackdown.
Of course there is a need for regulations but NYC has gone overboard. In this case, the roomate, a full time tenant was present, so where is the problem? Considering the history of boarding houses in this country, and this city, it is a gosh darned shame, and shame on the legislators that fell for the lobbyists argument that such stringent laws were to the benefit of the residents of all of Manhattan and its burroughs.
I completely agree. And have felt that it was the lobbying of the hotel/hospitality industry that lead to such severe crackdown.
Of course there is a need for regulations but NYC has gone overboard. In this case, the roomate, a full time tenant was present, so where is the problem? Considering the history of boarding houses in this country, and this city, it is a gosh darned shame, and shame on the legislators that fell for the lobbyists argument that such stringent laws were to the benefit of the residents of all of Manhattan and its burroughs.
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:03 AM
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No - it's nothing to do with hotels.
It's a function of the apartment rental market.
NYC operates under a system of rent stabilization. Under this system the rents the landlords can charge for many apartments (I believe those less than $2000 per month are controlled by law.) If one tenant leaves and a new one rents the apartment the landlord can then increase the rent accordingly. So - for people to sublet their apartments is actually taking them artificially off the market - if the renter isn't living there they should move out - so another renter has a place to live and the landlord can collect the higher rent.
So - it is done to be fair to both the landlords and the renters (there is a major shortage of lower priced apartments in NYC - and someone subletting an apartment they aren't using - is a problem for everyone.)
It's a function of the apartment rental market.
NYC operates under a system of rent stabilization. Under this system the rents the landlords can charge for many apartments (I believe those less than $2000 per month are controlled by law.) If one tenant leaves and a new one rents the apartment the landlord can then increase the rent accordingly. So - for people to sublet their apartments is actually taking them artificially off the market - if the renter isn't living there they should move out - so another renter has a place to live and the landlord can collect the higher rent.
So - it is done to be fair to both the landlords and the renters (there is a major shortage of lower priced apartments in NYC - and someone subletting an apartment they aren't using - is a problem for everyone.)
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:14 AM
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Whatever the reasons, the laws are there, enforceable, and everyone who is considering these kinds of stays needs to know about it.
Some people won't be swayed by the knowledge that they might be scammed, or stay in a sub-par place, or be out of luck when an apartment is raided and have to find some place to stay at the last minute. But some of those same people (including those who think it should be legal) might be swayed by the risk they pose to the people whose apartment they are staying in.
For other people, the opposite is true. They just want to know if they would be considered guilty of any crime if they are the short term renter, and they don't worry about the person from whom they rent.
Some people won't be swayed by the knowledge that they might be scammed, or stay in a sub-par place, or be out of luck when an apartment is raided and have to find some place to stay at the last minute. But some of those same people (including those who think it should be legal) might be swayed by the risk they pose to the people whose apartment they are staying in.
For other people, the opposite is true. They just want to know if they would be considered guilty of any crime if they are the short term renter, and they don't worry about the person from whom they rent.
Dec 4th, 2012, 11:26 AM
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"In this case, the roomate, a full time tenant was present, so where is the problem?"
Both tenants are apparently renters.We don't even know if the roommate is considered a tenant (his/her name is on the lease) or if they're fudging that too. But in any case, renters in most places do not have the right to do absolutely anything they want with an apartment, just the right to rent the space.
In many apartments, even minor renovations are not allowed. Renting to someone else, subletting, for whatever period of time) is generally not allowed--certainly not without prior permission.
Now if the landlord specifically allowed it (in writing) and the other roommate (if he/she is legally considered a tenant)stayed in the apartment and actually consented (the article says something like "he was OK with it", which could mean he felt like he couldn't say no or risk being thrown out himself), then maybe you'd have one of the uncommon legit situations.
Do most people going on vacation really want to look into all these things and get the guarantees they need? I suspect not.
Both tenants are apparently renters.We don't even know if the roommate is considered a tenant (his/her name is on the lease) or if they're fudging that too. But in any case, renters in most places do not have the right to do absolutely anything they want with an apartment, just the right to rent the space.
In many apartments, even minor renovations are not allowed. Renting to someone else, subletting, for whatever period of time) is generally not allowed--certainly not without prior permission.
Now if the landlord specifically allowed it (in writing) and the other roommate (if he/she is legally considered a tenant)stayed in the apartment and actually consented (the article says something like "he was OK with it", which could mean he felt like he couldn't say no or risk being thrown out himself), then maybe you'd have one of the uncommon legit situations.
Do most people going on vacation really want to look into all these things and get the guarantees they need? I suspect not.
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:25 PM
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I think the key thing is that the real estate market in NYC is very different from most of the country - and there are a host of rules that apply to many aspects of it.
People from other places may not understand, or like it - but it is what it is. (In most of the country it is not difficult to rent a decent apartment for less than $1500 per month - to the point that people sublet illegally to try to hang onto one if they leave for a period of time.)
And not following the law is accepting the risk of being removed and/or scammed.
People from other places may not understand, or like it - but it is what it is. (In most of the country it is not difficult to rent a decent apartment for less than $1500 per month - to the point that people sublet illegally to try to hang onto one if they leave for a period of time.)
And not following the law is accepting the risk of being removed and/or scammed.
Dec 4th, 2012, 01:45 PM
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nyer and nytraveler, you have both gone completely off topic. Subletting does not happen on a 3 night minimun. The transient laws are about rentals for less then 30 days.
One need not condescend to people outside your neighborhood that we don't understand the housing market or the real estate market in NYC, which are connected but two different subjects.
Yes there are many issues, but legislation, rather then address those issues chose to broad stroke a ban on short term rentals. If you want to believe that the hospitality industry was not involved intimately in that legislation, well then that is your perogative to be naive. The industry was and is very much involved.
One need not condescend to people outside your neighborhood that we don't understand the housing market or the real estate market in NYC, which are connected but two different subjects.
Yes there are many issues, but legislation, rather then address those issues chose to broad stroke a ban on short term rentals. If you want to believe that the hospitality industry was not involved intimately in that legislation, well then that is your perogative to be naive. The industry was and is very much involved.
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:12 PM
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lookin_glass,I think you are misreading me.
I use "subletting" just to mean you are the renter, and you are renting it to another person, whether for one night or for months. The law in question deals with short term so is the most relevant, but I was using an analogy to say that renters just don't have certain rights, including the ability to let other people pay to stay in "their" apartment.
I have not expressed an opinion on whether the law is just or not, or whether there are lobbying groups asserting unnecessary influence.I'm sure there are both good and bad reasons for the law.
I've just pointed out that people need to know that laws are in place and can cause all sorts of trouble on both ends. I did not talk about whether my building does this or that or any personal experiences with the situation. Nothing about "condescend(ing) to people outside your neighborhood that we don't understand the housing market or the real estate market in NYC"
It's a heated issue as I've said before. I think people should know that and not necessarily be convinced to flout a law when they don't know what it may mean to them and to others. Nothing more, nothing less.
I use "subletting" just to mean you are the renter, and you are renting it to another person, whether for one night or for months. The law in question deals with short term so is the most relevant, but I was using an analogy to say that renters just don't have certain rights, including the ability to let other people pay to stay in "their" apartment.
I have not expressed an opinion on whether the law is just or not, or whether there are lobbying groups asserting unnecessary influence.I'm sure there are both good and bad reasons for the law.
I've just pointed out that people need to know that laws are in place and can cause all sorts of trouble on both ends. I did not talk about whether my building does this or that or any personal experiences with the situation. Nothing about "condescend(ing) to people outside your neighborhood that we don't understand the housing market or the real estate market in NYC"
It's a heated issue as I've said before. I think people should know that and not necessarily be convinced to flout a law when they don't know what it may mean to them and to others. Nothing more, nothing less.
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:23 PM
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nyer, perhaps my misreading you inspired an eloquent and informative response from you. I apologize and greatly appreciate your thoughts on what is clearly a very heated issue.
Also, I think the spirit of fodors forums is meant for people like you, and others on this thread, to warn people of what might be a bad travel decision.
Also, I think the spirit of fodors forums is meant for people like you, and others on this thread, to warn people of what might be a bad travel decision.
Dec 4th, 2012, 03:49 PM
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If a landlord/Homeowners association/etc. doesn't want to have a tenant go on a long trip and sublet the apartment/condo, there is a specific and often-used clause, a prohibition against sub-leasing clause, which can be included in the contract that every renter has to sign.
The airbnb situation is entirely different. This is someone who want to rent out his/her place for one/more nights and to make a little money. Maybe the person has recently gone through a divorce and wants to rent out one of two bedrooms on a very temporary basis to make up for the loss of the ex-spouse's income. Why should that person be forced to move miles away to a cheaper place?
IMHO, the NY ordinances are working a hardship on the average New Yorker and favors the hospitality industry which is already charging outrageous amounts for a postage-sized room.
The airbnb situation is entirely different. This is someone who want to rent out his/her place for one/more nights and to make a little money. Maybe the person has recently gone through a divorce and wants to rent out one of two bedrooms on a very temporary basis to make up for the loss of the ex-spouse's income. Why should that person be forced to move miles away to a cheaper place?
IMHO, the NY ordinances are working a hardship on the average New Yorker and favors the hospitality industry which is already charging outrageous amounts for a postage-sized room.
Dec 4th, 2012, 04:15 PM
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No the NYC law favors legal tenants - preventing either cheating landlords or miscreant tenants from taking apartments out of the rental market and turning them into hotels.
The city has plenty of hotels - including apartment hotels for those wanting more room.
And when a tenant signs a lease that is a legal document - and it's perfectly legitimate for the landlord to stop them doing it.
If people want to do whatever they want with their own property - then they need to buy a private house - not rent an apartment or buy a condo or co-op - that come with very clearly defined rules and regulations.
And sorry - the laws are designed to support the needs of local residents/voters - not tourists.
And anyone thinking hotel rates are too high in NYC - should have a look at London, or Switzerland , or Scandinavia.
The city has plenty of hotels - including apartment hotels for those wanting more room.
And when a tenant signs a lease that is a legal document - and it's perfectly legitimate for the landlord to stop them doing it.
If people want to do whatever they want with their own property - then they need to buy a private house - not rent an apartment or buy a condo or co-op - that come with very clearly defined rules and regulations.
And sorry - the laws are designed to support the needs of local residents/voters - not tourists.
And anyone thinking hotel rates are too high in NYC - should have a look at London, or Switzerland , or Scandinavia.
Dec 4th, 2012, 05:34 PM
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[IMHO, the NY ordinances are working a hardship on the average New Yorker and favors the hospitality industry which is already charging outrageous amounts for a postage-sized room.]
I can see how you feel that way, because I had a heck of a time finding a place too. But the real problem is that Manhattan's just not that big of an island. Speaking of which, Tokyo isn't exactly known for being cheap either.
I can see how you feel that way, because I had a heck of a time finding a place too. But the real problem is that Manhattan's just not that big of an island. Speaking of which, Tokyo isn't exactly known for being cheap either.
Dec 4th, 2012, 10:55 PM
#20
The place we rented in Astoria Queens was for 14 days, it was one apartment in a building of 6. The owner used to live in it herself but now lives two blocks away. She owns other properties too that she rents out as holiday homes. Are the rules any different in Queens or do all the boroughs come under the same law?
