Hello all.

1. Norwegian airlines : we have just had our flights to Tromso in February cancelled by Norwegian. I shouldn�t be surprised as we have flown with them 4 times and over 12 years they are just getting worse. They seem to be in competition with Ryanair for a coverted title.

We paid �900 five months ago, they have changed our flight times four times and now have simply cancelled the flight. So we will not be going to the Artic Circle as the flights are now ridiculously expensive as it is school half term. Luckily all our accommodation is cancellable and so we are not out of pocket. Just wastered a lot of valuable time as this was a complicated trip, with lots of research needed. No big deal as we have seen it and done it three times before, to the extent that my son can�t even be bothered going husky sledding this time. Spoilt brat he is.

2. Lufthansa have just thrown out a deal to Munich which I have just booked, very good prices.

We have been to Munich before and we don�t want to spend time in the city. I will hire a Volvo 4wd with snow chains, snow isn�t an issue. Living in Scotland, we know what the white stuff is. Driving 300 miles a day isn�t an issue unless the weather is really bad. We don�t want to drive that distance every day.

We have only ever stayed in Munich and have never visited the Alps in winter.

We love small towns, good cafes/ restaurants, may want to try winter sports/ hiking below 3000ft.

Open to a base with a good quality house rental or moving around between hotels.

Any ideas ?

A place I found lovely, very small town is Allmannshoffen, we slept in a hotel in an old cloister called ... Kloster Holzen. One hour from Muenchen.
Always wanted to go back there, but don't remember what was around, but I spent one very lovely dinner there. Donauworth close by has been indicated as a real gem but we didn't have time to go.

Thanks Thibaut

I’ll have a look.

Just spent an hour digging around. I just don’t know this area of Europe, goodness knows what I have been missing. Garmisch-Partenkirchen doesn’t look real for what we need, they even offer free guided winter hikes at all levels.

I’m beginning to thank Norwegian Airlines.

Very, very excited about the prospects.

I was going to suggest Garmisch; glad you're thinking about it.

February is the half-term break across Central Europe, too, with lots of people moving about. Be prepared for return border crossing delays should you venture into Austria to, perhaps, one of our favorite destinations, Seefeld in Tirol. The village is part of the Olympic region from the 1964(?) games, and there's no shortage of winter activities for all levels. Cozy apartments/all-inclusive resorts; small village; easy-peasy train to Innsbruck.

It is admittedly a pretty big schlep from Munich (5-10 hours depending on how you travel), but one of the most spellbinding places I have ever been in winter was the Harz Mountains. The food (mainly game) was outstanding. I can still taste my first-ever bite of wild boar in sour cherry sauce.

Thanks St Cirq

My wife visited the Harz as a child and remembers it as being stunning. Have you visited the area South of Munich? We are beginning to be drawn to this area, maybe to include Salzburg in a circuit.

Fourfor

I think this time we would accept a degree of visitor mobbing. Senja in Norway would have been very quiet with very few facilities. Having a vibrant base isn’t a bad thing.

some details

16th Feb land Munich 20:45 a short flight for us (2 hours)

22nd Feb leave Munich early morning

We will pick a car up at the airport and then will use a hotel in Munich.

Sunday : may consider a morning visit to Dachau. I grew up in the UK in the 60s and 70s when the impact of WW2 was still fairly fresh. I can’t forget watching the TV series “The World at War” narrated by Sir Lawrence Olivier. Shocking.

My son is 13 and the site doesn’t seem as shocking as Auschwitz. Having seen the images of modern Auschwitz, I’m not sure I would feel comfortable with a visit. Need to talk to him about how he feels, I think he should have some exposure of mankind’s worst moments.

Yes, I've been all over the area south of Munich (Tegernsee being a place that stands out in memory), but it was so long ago that my offerings cannot be useful. I also have a viscerally negative reaction to anything Austrian, so can't help with that, either. It's mighty beautiful country, though.

When I was living for 8 years in Munich, the area between Salzburg, Innsbruck, Garmisch and F�ssen or Reutte had been the more or less obvious choice for weekend getaways.

Weatherwise you should have a decent layer of snow in the higher altitudes, but not necessarily in Munich.
Obviously, you cannot forcast the weather, but one dreaded weather phenomenon in the "pre-Alps" (between Munich and the real Alps) in winter is dense high fog which encloses places in lower elevations like under a steel grey cupola. While any place above 700 or 800 meters is enjoying bright sunshine.

The Ausserfern valley / Tyrolean Zugspitze region was usually a safe spot to escape the "fog". And really scenic while still somewhat off the beaten path - though you still find any kind of winter tourism infrastructure like miles of groomed hiking trails (in the valley and also up the mountains), downhill toboggan rides on closed forest roads, cable cars, cross-country and downhill.. and so on. It just "lacks" the mobs of �tztal or Schladming..
https://www.tyrol.com/regions/a-tyrolean-zugspitz-arena

Seefeld in Tirol is nearby and also has enough of an altitude, though somewhat more "posh" than the Ausserfern valley.

Another option in roughly that area would be Lechtal near Reutte:
https://www.lechtal.at/en/winter/

Snow chains will probably be a bit of an overkill since your rental car will be equipped with winter tires, but for peace of mind, why not.
But you're neither supposed nor allowed to drive with snow chains just because there is a layer of snow on the roads.
Roads where you must put on the chains are designated by this round blue sign:
Schneeketten sind vorgeschrieben | Stra�enschilder
With snow chains you have a speed limit of 50kph.
You will find these signs mostly on steep tertiary roads to some god-forsaken villages or as a temporary sign right after a "blizzard".
Regular snowfalls get plowed 24/7 in the Alps on the major and secondary highways.

Since you will be driving a rather sophisticated 4x4 vehicle you must also check the manual how driving with snow chains will affect ESP or ABS features.. it can be that you need to switch it off or select a certain setting.

Happy travels and much fun in the snow.

Clear all snow off your vehicle before hitting the road. Murnau, GAP, and Oberammergau are our favourites south of Munich but like Nurnberg also. They keep the roads cleared. Parking is a bit tricky since they have mountains of snow ploughed into mountains in many places.

St Cirq

Tegernsee looks beautiful, I think we will add it to our route, long with Murnau (thanks Macross).
Austria : what is your gut feeling. Is it similar to my age old fear of the French, following years of abuse as a child in my French lessons?

Cowboy

We have had mixed success with chains over the years, in the UK the only guidance is don’t damage the road which is vague. Thanks for the information about th restrictions on the German roads. They are only for desparate situations in that trying time between light snow on ice and snkw that is too deep and stacks up on the front bumper, just before you give up and wait for the snow plough.

We have odd odd things happen with stability control systems. Audis could never cope what ever you did and the ABS system continually kicked in, they were terrible in snow anyway. The older Volvos just needed the ESP de-activated, my new one doesn’t seem to need telling what to do, it just does it. Shame about the hugely wide tyres which look great but do a really good job of spreading the weight over the road surface which is what you don’t want.

Has anyone hiked in this area , Any good routes which will not involve mountaineering?

Also so does anyone have any hotel suggestions, good quality if possible.

We we may settle for GP and the castles and then two days in Salzburg, is that too predictable ?

How quickly are the roads cleared in the case of severe weather? just thinking if we pre-book hotels and commit to routes which may not be ideal in heavy snow. In Scotland we do have biblical stuff come down and just don’t travel at times. Just not worth it, unless absolutely necessary.

Macross

yes, we remember those piles in Tromso, Norway. They even have parking tunnels to avoid having the cars totally buried.

Also struggling with want to do on the first / last day. Is it worth just staying next to the airport, I don’t li,e the look of any of the hotels and it looks a fair way out of town. I hadn’t realised this as we have driven to Munich from the UK in the past and met friends in the city. Never ventured out before.

IME, regular snowfall on regular highways gets cleared constantly or whenever needed. In case of overnight snowfalls, maintenance crews don't wait until next morning but you see plows cruising around in the middle of the night as well, when necessary. In the Alps, these roads are needed by tens of thousands of people every day of the year at every hour. Each municipality has a fleet of snow removal vehicles standing by.
If I wanted to be on the safe side, I'd look for accomodation in any of the smaller towns which had already been mentioned and stay away from "in the middle of nowhere" places at the end of a long tiny tertiary road.
There can, of course, be those weather conditions of more than regular magnitude which lead to road closures, but even in Alpine countries like Austria or Switzerland it's so unusual to be really trapped somewhere unexpectedly for a substantial amount of time that it would be national news.

BC, my gut feeling about Austria will not be popular on this or any other travel board, so it would probably be best if I didn't explain it. I can travel pretty freely and inexpensively all over Europe, and do so, but you won't find me in Austria. Others love it, so let them enjoy it. I can't relate to years of abuse in French classes - I loved them all - as I did my years of German classes. I love the languages; there are just some civilizations that chill me.

Thanks Cowboy

That confirms the efficient culture I had hoped for as best case. In Scotland and definitely England, there are periods of up 12 hours when nothing seems to happen. The general government services approach seems to be “if you are stupid enough to travel then why should we try to keep the economy moving”.

Looking at the routes we seem seem to be firming up on, they seem to be main arterial roads at lower altitudes.

St Cirq

I think I know where you are coming from but probably know it will to not effect our travel. We had truly dire language teachers who taught by rote and the cane. Goodness knows how a 12 year old was supposed to love a culture under those circumstances. You may have picked up on the fact that over the past two years, I’ve come to love France and the sooner I can get off of this insular island and permanently into either the Dordogne or Gironde .....the better. That’s my take on Brexit.

And when you do, BC, drop me a note and come by for a visit. Really!

I was monumentally lucky that I got stellar foreign-language instruction my whole life (partly, I suppose, because my father was a linguist - spoke, wrote, and read 9+ languages - it was just part of my life, hearing the babel of foreign tongues).

We will be back next summer and we are suffering from the lack of a French middle market again.

In many areas the rentals which allow dogs seem to be either

1. Huge, film star style and cost e10,000s a week.
or
2. Small and actually pretty close to dog kennels

The Gironde is really difficult, key in pool and dogs into Air BnB and there�s very little choice. Do the same for Cornwall and there is a huge choice of well decorated houses ( maybe no pools). The Dordogne is the exception there�s a good choice of pet friendly properties with pools. We may be coming you way and yes, would be good to meet up.

Herrenchiemsee Palace - the Bavarian Versailles and one of 'Mad' Ludwig's famous Ersatz but lovely fanciful works would be near Prien on main road to Salzburg area - have to take a boat but a really neat place if choosing to drive that way. I'd consider Salzburg and the Lake District next to it - a k a The Sound of Music Country as much of the film was filmed there as a nice place - go onto Hallstatt for a taste of the really high Alps. A fairly short loop from Salzburg - one of Europe's comeliest looking cities with its famous pastel-hued Baroque facades and back thru Bavaria to Munich.

We have found a perfect hotel in Garmisch-Partenkirchen and our friend who was an international skater rates it as here favourite town in the Alps, great!

We are driving on to Salzburg for two nights, can’t seem to find a contemporary hotel we like for around e350. We will have a car and so the hotel can be outside the city.

Anyone any suggestions?