Mucky

Report on TV today says that the traditional london bus will soon be phased out to be replaced by bendy busses.
These will be sold off to the general public.
This is because they fail European regulations for disabled access and safety.
(Hell its worked fine for 50 odd years). Anyway I was wondering how many of you here would wish to buy one and what would you do with it.

Muck

ben_haines_london

This is because they fail European regulations for disabled access and safety.
(Hell its worked fine for 50 odd years). Anyway I was wondering how many of you here would wish to buy one and what would you do with it.

You say the double deckers worked fine for 50 odd years. Most people can get about fairly well, and till two years ago I could make my way upstairs to the splendid views from the from of such a bus. Since then the top of a bus is beyond my reach, Moreover, for most of those 50 odd years the high step on entry made busses useless to many old people and to anyone with a baby buggy or pram. Only in the last ten years have double deckers been re designed to give space for baby buggies, wheelchairs, and even (as for me nowadays) folding bicycles.

I wonder whether you are like me till two years ago, fit, and forgetful f the needs of others.

I am making both a humane and an economic point. In Britain (and perhaps in the States ?) populations are getting older on average, and we need all possible of our fit adults to be at work, earning a decent living and paying their taxes.

Sorry I have no thoughts on what to do with retired busses.

ben.haines@:btinternet.com

GSteed

I thought buying or having one of these busses would be most useful. Sorry! A business aquaintance did buy one. It was never as useful as he imagined or at all profitable to operate. Imagine the problems when engine parts are needed. Imagine USA or state licensing concerns! I know they were great on English streets...hop on, hop off..I always appreciated being able to ask the conductor about a destination and then getting put off at the right stop. New busses in Poland now have a mechanism that tilts the bus to lower the entrance level! So far no hydraulic lifts for wheelchairs. Patrons always assist.

flanneruk

Ben's quite right about one problem with Routemasters (the technical name for the double-deckers without a door).

But that's not all that's wrong with them. They're hopeless for today's big bums: few adults in 2004 are able to sit side by side on the seats allegedly for 2 (which is why it's so common to see one person loutishly occupying the whole thing). They don't take one person plus a decent amount of shopping. They've no real room for luggage.

And they're quite useless for anyone with mobility problems - people who've recently broken a leg, anyone with a gout attack (believe me!!!), and someone with a pram.

They've become a classic Design Icon: pretty to look at, virtually useless, and appreciated only by people who never have to use them. But it IS nice to go on top, sit in the front seats and pretend you're driving. Though without the nicotine-stained ceilings and the fug of 40 people giving themselves lung cancer, the top deck isn't what it was.

Don't get me started on the double-deckers with doors.

And as for buying a used anything from Red Ken...

Mucky

Ben,
They have been successful for 50 odd years. They were planned for about 17 yrs I think and they stayed longer. That is what I call success.
Regarding your personal problems when using them, of course it is difficult for some people. Please show me a cover all perfect system that everyone can use.There probably isn't one.
But you are not the majority and it has worked well for the majority for a long time.
I am not a particular fan of public transport at all and thankfully I don't need to use it but that is my choice. I guess choice is something londoners don't get a lot of.

Muck

Noddy

Hi Mucky,
Yes I saw that report too.
I think that these busses have been great servants to the people of London for a very long time.Whenever I have caught one they have been easy to use, but I am not so large Flanner but I see your point.
Ben you seem to be having a go at Mucky here,he/she is correct they have worked fine for 50 years or so.
Agreed they are not the perfect solution to everyones needs but as Mucky says what is.
We all feel frustrated with many of the new EU directives coming through.
Dont we ?
Considering their icon status with tourists it is surprising that they are not keeping some just for the center of London.

Noddy

ben_haines_london

For Noddy. Since I know nothing of Mucky I have no reason to have a go at him. To disagree with him, yes.

You write: Regarding your personal problems when using them, of course it is difficult for some people. So you say that is all right then ? It is chiefly poorer people who use busses (richer are more in cars, taxis, and trains), so busses are catering for people already under-privileged. Now do you say it would have been better to leave them so, not to take steps to include them in use of the service ?

I do not feel frustrated with many of the new EU directives coming through. Like European Court judgements, they force us to re consider old customs that can we can improve on. For some reason, a number of foreign owners of British newspapers like Britain as it was, and a number of journalists and some politicians agree. Fine: there are complex ways to stop stupid directives. You can say too complex, and I agree: I want democratic and open European paths to European decisions. But as in this bus case, the decisions are often good. The weakness of those who dislike the decisions is illustrated by their need to invent directives. Do you recall the end of the pint of bitter, the rules for the straight cucumber and the unbending banana ?

For Mucky. Thank you for rejoining. You write that there is probably no perfect system that everyone can use. I agree. But an art of government (as of citizenship) is to judge what changes will be worth the cost, and to make those. Two points suggest that it may even be self-interest. First, you may well both of you become less active with time, and you will want public provision to care for you, too. Or will you each retire with a private chauffeur ? Second, as I said, we tax payers must cover the cost if people willing and able to work are hindered when they try to travel to the office. I am glad you have the choice to drive, and want those who cannot drive, or cannot afford to, yet to be able to work, go shopping, and so on. Choice is something such Londoners do not get a lot of.

I agree, double deckers ran well and long, those with conductors gave people a welcome and a feeling of security, and they were in those senses a success. Forty years ago we were ready to exclude more people from more pleasures of life. We felt poorer: we were still working on such great areas of need as housing, schooling and health. So we are still, but we tend to widen the range of care for poor people.

Our thinking American readers will recognise debates they have there, too. Long may the debates flourish, both sides of the Atlantic and in any open society, and long may the number of such societies grow. We may not get heaven on earth, but we can get bus seats big enough for our tubby selves.

Ben Haines

Mucky

Thank you Noddy for support, I agree I felt Ben was having a go too.
Never mind I am big enough and ugly enough to look after myself.
Thanks Ben for the articulate answer. I have a car but choose to walk to work. I suppose my wife could drive me. I guess I am lucky.We have digressed somewhat here but thats what this forum is all about I suppose.
My question was founded upon the report this morning and I wondered who would buy one of these busses.I did wonder if many would find their way to the states as has been the route for many traditional British icons, phone boxes, post boxes etc.Obviously not as GSteed says it may not be viable.

Muck

nytraveler

For anyone who's interested someone in New York got the bright idea to buy a couple of these very cute buses a couple of years ago - thinking perhaps if they were popular they might work to reduce traffic in the city.

What they found was:

They can't be adapted to meet the Americans with Disabilities Act (access for people with mobility problems/wheelchairs) even on the lower level so they're illegal for public use (all new public facilities must meet these standards)

They're too high for the street furniture (always bumping into lights and ripping branches off trees)

People on the top level can see directly into the apartments of people living in second floor apartments - and there were tons of complaints on this

They ended up being used by one of the private tour companies (which doesn;t have to meet ADA rules) but are limited to use on a few major streets because of the tree damage and peeping tom (even if involuntary) issues.

Underhill

My home town owns a small fleet of London buses, used for public transport. They're very popular with visitors.

Mucky

Hi Underhill,
Does that mean they will have to change them because of EU legislation?

Muck

Travelnut

Underhill is playing with you...

Rich

Some character bought a few a while back and uses them as portable diners on South Padre Island . . He said he had to change the engine and powertrain but otherwise they look like the real thing. . and do get attention!

Rich

cher_cher

The cable cars in San Francisco aren't exactly accessible. They're also archaic and very loud. That said, they are considered historic landmarks and kept around to remind us of the way things used to be.

If I had a windfall I would most definitely buy one and convert it into a roving free book dispensary.

margo_oz

Ben Haines
Having a go at Mucky is certainly acceptable, perhaps expected. Have no fear!

If you visited the Australian board, you'd find Mucky-baiting is obligatory. We even arranged police supervision for our Welsh visitor while he was in Sydney!

Mucky

Oh Margo,
Don't encourage them lol
I thought I could hide in the Europe board from you and the Sydney cops.
But it seems you found me ;-)

Talk soon
Muck

flygirl

I agree with cher_cher - London should at least keep SOME of them, if only to ply the main tourist routes. what would London be without its Routemasters? I weep at the thought.