lmoneylsauce

Hi Everyone,

My fiance and I are thinking of relocating to Europe for a year and will be able to work from any major city (London, Zurich, Paris, Rome, Munich, etc.) Where should we move? What are the pros/cons of these major cities? We don't mind learning a new language & we want a city that's got a lot in the way of fine dining, nightlife & cultural (art/theater/etc.) activities.

Budman

Make sure you have a job before you relocate.

Cicerone

Yes, that would be my first question: do you have an employer willing to sponsor you for a work permit? If not do you both have a passport that would enable you to live in any of these places? Will you be married at the time so that if one of you has a work permit the other can be there on a dependent's permit?

Income and other taxes are quite high in the UK and Switzerland, over 50%. If you are a US citizen you will also pay US federal income tax for that year. This can get pretty expensive unless your company is willing to tax equilize you. That might be the first thing to look into. Accomodation is farily expensive in all three unless you live in outer suburburbs and then you could have a longish commute and in Zurich and Rome would find English far less common in the suburbs.

I think any of the ciites would be a great choice for a year and offers all of what you are looking for. I lived in Zurich for about 4 years and really enjoyed it; it does have its challenges (language, small town), but for a year anything is great IMO and bearable.

KateInLIC

Since you've said you can work from any major city, I am assuming you are telecommuting? Or independent contractor? I'd recommend Prague. If you're being paid from elsewhere, your money will go far. It is cheaper to live a wonderful lifestyle (nice flat, opera, concerts, fine dining and travel) and everything is available. Of course, you can also get what you need (eg high speed internet). There are direct flights from JFK, Toronto, and so on. It's a wonderful city, convenient to everything else in Europe. AND most people have some knowledge of English, so as much as you should try to learn Czech, you can get by without it.

alya

Cicerone,

The US has a 'double taxation" agreement with most European countries; the OP would not pay taxes in both countries.

http://www.icaew.co.uk/librarylinks/...AUB=TB2I_25798

We moved to the US in 2001 and paid UK taxes until the day we left and the US when we arrived.

Not fun - thankfully we had professional help

Cicerone

Don't confuse a tax treaty with an obligation to pay tax. The tax treaty still indicates an underlying obligation to pay tax, which you still have as a US citizen regardless of your residence. The tax treaty gets you some CREDITS for paying taxes in the UK, but you are still legally obligated to file and pay US federal income tax. This is different from most every other country in the world, in that the US taxes you regardless of where you live. A UK citizen who is not resident in the UK does NOT have any UK tax liabilty at all. they don't have to file a return, they don't have to worry about taxation treaties or tax credits between countries.

You still have US tax liabilty, you just get some credits for the UK tax. Look at your US tax returns for 2001 (which you had to file), you probably still paid some US tax. Due to the US$80,000 exlusion of income and the credits, if your salary was less than US$80,000 you may not have; but most people do pay a good bit of US income tax when salary, housing allowances, etc are all added in. I've been overseas for almost 20 years and know the drill pretty well.

alya

Well, I'm glad I moved to this side of the pond and not the other way

We have not paid UK taxes since we left - in spite of still owning a house in the UK that we rent out - we do file a tax return (already done this years )

We claim expenses against the rental in the US and find this to be favourable to us.

Re: our tax returns, of course we paid tax - from the day we landed, luckily we only had to file 6 weeks worth.

Cicerone

Sorry, I misread your message and thought you were a US citizen who moved to the UK; I see know you are the other way 'round. Yes, you are one of the lucky people who don't have to pay those high UK taxes when not actually living in the UK. I am one of those people who have to pay US taxes even though I have not lived in the US since 1989. It was not fun when living in Switzerland which has a very high income tax rate, although with my company help it all pretty much evens out. I now live in Hong Kong and pay US and Hong Kong taxes. I just cannot figure out what "benefits" I am getting for my US taxes as I don't live there. Please do not tell me the US Army, I want no part of those benefits....

altamiro

Cicerone,

sorry, I have to disagree. Where in Switzerland did you live? Most kantons have VERY LOW income taxes compared with the neighbouring countries, the VAT is also much lower. Are you sure you have paid the Swiss tax amounts and not under some other system like the US tax obligation as described before??

audere_est_facere

The UK's direct taxes aren't that high - some of tye lowest in western europe. The top rate is 40% for income over about £33,000, 22% below that. There's also National Insurance at 9%, but that gets you alll the health care etc.

It's the indirect taxes that make things pricey.

thetanker

Berlin if you two make enough money or Munchen (Munich) Munich is almost on the bottom south east and is nice to travel from. Ireland or Brittania is doubly expensive than central Europe. How about Poland or Hungary?? Cheaper and still has train plane or auto possiblities. If not Germany is the central heart of Europe with most travel to anywhere else only a day by car....always specials on flights and trains too.

Christina

Aside from tax issues, if you really can just move to any of those cities as you wish -- I personally can't imagine moving for a year to a place I have never been or had no reason to even want to move there. This appears to be the case -- that you dont' know any of these places, and don't even care or have a personal preference.

So, I'd say London because I think it will be easier if you only speak English. Don't assume you are going to move to Paris and somehow know French within a few weeks.

Stellarossa

European Local: So what possessed you to move here?

ImoneyIsauce: I asked a question on a website about where I should move to in Europe.

European Local: American, right?

ImoneyIsauce: yup.

lmoneylsauce

Wow...ok, lots of tax information! To answer your questions: We will be married by the time we move over there and my future husband's company has offices in all of those city. I'm an independent contractor and telecommute so I'm flexible. So in essence, we don't really have to worry about the visa issue. Also, as far as expense is concerned we currently live in Manhattan so I'm not too concerned about cost because everything is very expensive here as well (and we'll probably rent a smaller place there since it will only be for one year). We will have at least a year to learn a new language (while living in America) so I'm not ridiculous enough to think I could move to a foreign country and just immediately pick something up, but my fiance and I do know a little French (enough to get by) and would be willing to take language classes before moving wherever. What I'm really looking for is a better feel for the personalities of the cities mentioned...if you might be so kind to elaborate on that.

lmoneylsauce

Also, in response to Christina's post--my fiance has been to all of these places but I haven't. I've traveled, but never in Europe--I will be going next year to Europe (but not to all of those cities--not enough time). Certainly I care where I will be moving, which is why I posted this question in the first place.

Cicerone

Imoneylsauce, if you just have one year, it is somewhat easier, in my experience, to move to an English-speaking country. It takes about a year to feel "at home" in any overseas move, and the adjustment takes a bit more time in a non-English speaking country in my experience (Singapore, Hong Kong (twice) and Zurich). I think you might get more out of a one-year experience in London because you can jump right into things. Europe is attractive because you can travel very easily by train or car to other places in Europe, but the initial break-in period like looking for flat, dealing with work permit, residence permit, getting a phone, finding a doctor, dentist, dry cleaner, grocery store, hairdresser, learning how the post office works, and meeting people is just much easier when it can all be done in English. That is just my experience and advice. If you have more than a year, or if there is an opportunity to extend the stay if you like it, then you might want to consider the other cities on your list.

altarimo, I lived in Zurich canton which I believe has the highest taxes. I agree the VAT is lower in Switzerland than neighboring countries, it is like 7%. However, the effective income tax rate is a good bit in excess of the US federal rate of 32% which Americans in the highest tax bracket pay; I estimate it at close to 45%. It is a bit hard to work out the exact number because the Canton is quite slow in sending assessments, they sent 2003 assessments in 2004 and 2005 and I just last week received another assessment for 2005. I have never lived anywhere where the tax authorities are so relaxed about getting paid.....

altamiro

>altarimo, I lived in Zurich canton which I believe has the highest taxes. I agree the VAT is lower in Switzerland than neighboring countries, it is like 7%. However, the effective income tax rate is a good bit in excess of the US federal rate of 32% which Americans in the highest tax bracket pay; I estimate it at close to 45%.

It is strange, because my boss pays about 10% in taxes with rather reasonable salary and I do even less. I really think what you have paid were not Swiss taxes but a sum of Swiss and US ones. Or you have earned a huge amount of money (in excess of 1/2 Mio Fr per year), but I don't think we should discuss your and my salaries here

In any case, with an average-paid job a non-US citizen pays significantly less taxes in Zürich than in any neighbouring countries, but of course still more than in Zug or Schwyz

ma23peas

lmoney! Congrats on the wedding!! What an exciting time in your life! We have moved across the US several times (Washington State, Alabama, Georgia, Tennessee)....I don't know if I would choose London, it's a FABULOUS place, going there in 3 weeks...but the weather is rather dismal. Very similar to the weather we had on the western coast of Washington...it can be quiet dreary from October to March. I'm a sunshine person, just need to see it often...so I would lean more towards Paris or Rome....I think there is PLENTY in both of those cities to keep you on a constant vacation so to speak...the history and museums, scenery and wonderful weekend trips out to other areas would be a dream...and the weather will cooperate with you to be able to do those things.

Taxes and all will always be there, just don't overlook the simple things like a good sunny weekend!

Tara

nessundorma

lmoneylsauce,

There is a lot of difference in orderliness between the cities you mentioned, also in expectactations about how to be have in public.

If you or your husband has the kind of personality where you get impatient with slow lines, or trains that are late, or things not working, do not move to Rome. You will find it infuriating. To a lesser extent, that can be true of London as well, despite its reputation.

On the other hand, if you are the kind of person who has a hard time dealing with a lot social formalities or being expected to conform to a certain standard of behavior, think twice about moving to Paris or Zurich. If you are looking for a place where you will find easy acceptance and be welcomed as friends, Paris and Zurich are less open than Rome and London (although some may disagree about the latter).

Does your husband's firm have offices in Antwerp or Amsterdam? If so, I would definitely explore tham (especially Antwerp) as places where you would find a lot of English spoken in addition to the native tongue and a lot of very egalitarian, cosmopolitan attitudes.

Another country to look at seriously is Spain, which is enjoying great prosperity and a period of openess and liberality. Both Madrid and Barcelona might be very enjoyable. And one of the upsides of learning Spanish is that you can travel a third of the globe with that language.

For me, food and climate would be big considerations. That would make me less interested in Zurich, Amsterdam, Munich and even London (which is also dreadfully expensive, even compared to Manhattan). Much higher on my list would be cities in Italy, Spain and Belgium, and also Paris.

good luck!

dutyfree

I work for a major US airline and fly to the cities above that you mentioned you were interested in moving to. Personally, I would chose either Paris or Rome. London and Zurich are EXTREMELY expensive(yes, I know you live in Manhattan but sometimes food and coffee aren't worth the ridiculous prices you must pay in London and Zurich?) and the weather issue is another problem. Paris and Rome have their hassles but they are Paris and Rome-wonderful cities,alot of culture/nightlife and history with terrific dining options that you want.They are the two cities that I hear most people wish that they lived on the flights back to the US.The people that work in those two cities always comment how despite the traffic,hassles with government issues,etc. they really enjoy going to do their work there.There are numerous internet "expat" pages that perhaps you could explore to get a feel as to what you might be up against in your move. All 5 cities you listed are great options but Rome and Paris would be my two possibilities.What a great adventure!!!