Mark_va

Went to British Museun in London last week. Fabulous. A Must see. Its pride and joy? The Greek marbles from the Parthenon. Now that the Olympics are here, where do they truly belong? They were taken by Lord Elgin, ambassador to Turkey when Turkey ruled Greece and subsequently sold to the British Museum. The Brits say their purchase/possession would hold up in any European court. They also say they'll preserve them better and offer them on a better stage for all the world to see. Where do they belong?
GREECE! Any thoughts?

mpoll

See the follwing article that dispels many Elgin Marble's myths

http://education.guardian.co.uk/high...265267,00.html

flanneruk

The Guardian article is of course right that this was an Athenian monument, not a Greek one. But the article makes one important error of fact.

The Parthenon wasn't funded by Athens. It was paid for by the tax imposed by Athens on its Ionian colonies to pay for common defence against the Persians.

By the time of Pericles, the Persians weren't a threat, but the cash kept on accumulating. So it was spent - without an iota of consultation with the exploited Ionians who were picking up the tab - on the Parthenon.

So there is indeed a case the Marbles should be returned to the people who paid for them.

The oppressed people of Ionia.

Or, as we'd call it today, Turkey.

AR

One thing that must be remembered in all the arguments is that the marbles were removed from Greece for their own preservation. They certainly would not have survived in the same condition that they are currently found in had they not been removed.
There is always an argument for the repatriation of important items. The British Museum also holds the Rosetta Stone which surely belongs back in Egypt? But then there are other items all over the world that do not belong in the places that they are housed. Should the Mona Lisa go back to Italy?The Met in NYC bought many items from Howard Carter that he'd plundered from Tutenkhamun's Tomb.
But that's the world and museums, isn't it?

maraliv

Lets not forget that they are NOT Elgin Marbles but ACROPOLIS marbles!!!

TopMan

Well, Mark, please don't EVER go to Venice unless you want to see a LOT of things that the Venetians outright plundered from many other places..they make Lord Elgin look like some sort of petty criminal.

Anonymous

When I took my 10-year-old son to the British Museum, he commented on how little of the stuff therein was actually British, and decided that the full name of the place should be "British Museum of Colonial Loot."

That said, I am personally grateful that I do not have to travel to all those places to see examples of their antiquities.

nytraveler

Anonymous - I love your kid - only 10 and already wise in the realties of the world. Has he also been to the French, German and American museums of colonial loot?

sheila

It's obvious. They should be in Elgin.

USNR

Sheila -- spoken like a true Scot!

If you think Lord Elgin had sticky fingers, wait until you see the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

flanneruk

Anonymous:

Did your son not notice how much of the BM was dumped here by a thousand years' worth of people colonially oppressing <b>us</b>?

Spygirl

Flanneruk-you're dodging the issue-not surprisingly-and the issue is, (leaving aside the BS &quot;legal&quot; arguments that Elgin lawfully bought one country's cutural treasures from an entity that did not have rightful possession in the first instance)-not to mention the fact that Elgin hacked the damn things out of the Parthenon with a saw!

-and oh, what a nice racist comment, AR-ONLY the BRITISH could have cared for them and preserved them for the world to see? Right? Gee, gosh, is that why the British Museum reluctantly had to admit that they had seriously damaged the Parthenon Marbles 60 years ago when they did such a careful job of &quot;preserving&quot; them while cleaning them???

The Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Greece because it is the morally RIGHT thing to do- the Marbles are part of this country's cultural and national identity-it is a highly charged and emotional issue for them-and don't give me this crap that it would open the floodgates of returns of the plunder and loot by the former colonialist nations (which maybe wouldn't be an altogether bad thing to this poster-however, I don't see Egypt demanding the return of its priceless cultural treasures from England's looting of its country, do you?)

The fact of the matter is, there are special instances (and this is CLEARLY ONE OF THEM!) where museums and nations make a decision to repatriate, as it were, CERTAIN treasures/artifacts to a nation, because of that nation's special cultural, emotional, and yes, nationalistic identity with the treasures or artifacts in question.

Hmmm, now, what sort of example can Spygirl use to illustrate her point to these former-empire English posters attitude concerning the Parthenon marbles? Hey, I know! What about the STONE OF DESTINY (or Stone of Scone, as it's also known by?) Didn't that sit for 700 years in Westminster? And didn't your Queen make a decision that it should go back to Scotland where it belongs? (although the identity of the Stone is much less clear than the Parthenon marbles, by ANY measure!) I mean, I'm SURE it was better cared for in Westminster than the Scots could care for it in Edinburgh, right? But the Queen made a decision to do that (of course, given that she owns land there and LIKES Scotland, not to mention the fact that it was the politically expedient thing to do as a concession to the Scottish nationalists) but she did it, didn't she? Yes, she did!

But this is different-this is the Marbles, and the nation in question is GREECE. The English don't care about doing the right thing here-they'd rather show the world what their pernicious racist attitudes towards the Greeks REALLY are all about-and refuse, beyond all rationality and morality- to return to Greece what should have been returned long ago.

SuzieC

Sheesh... what a foolish thread!

How about returning North America to my ancestors? The natural resources that have been plundered by the English, Scots, Irish, Germans, French, Polish, Russians, ...etc.. etc..

Spygirl

Unfortunately, Suzie-YOUR response is foolish and unknowledgeable-museums everywhere return artifacts of special significance to certain peoples and countries-if you don't know about the issue at hand, please try not to show your ignorance by posting!

Mark_va

Hey Spygirl-you know how to take a stand. I'm with you and I'm not even Greek, only a lousy New Yorker.
Frankly, the letter in the British Museum-which you have to crane your neck to read since its in a little area by the guard- states the British &quot;response&quot; which ticked me off, ie. the Greeks would leave them exposed to the elements, and they'd be on a platform for all the world, not just for the enhancement of Greek culture, their possession would hold up in any European court, etc. By their logic (purchase issue aside), having been in Paris and the Rodin museum two weeks ago, they may as well grab Rodin's &quot;The Thinker,&quot; as well since its outdoors in a garden subject to the elements and in a little French museum, not quite the world stage.
Mark

Spygirl

Excellent point, Mark-about the Rodin. But that &quot;preserving&quot; bit is all just morally bankrupt racist crap by the English-of course, there's been none o' that through the years. now has there? (smile)

111op

Well, I suppose that people are aware that Greece has built a new museum at the foot of the Acropolis with special display cases for the marbles with the hope that the UK will return them to Greece?

111op

There was an interesting article on the marbles in NYT not long ago on the role that Lady Elgin played in this whole controversy. You can't access the article for free anymore on the Times website, but you can read the article here. It was written by Susan Nagel:

http://p205.ezboard.com/fcyprianasco...cID=9419.topic

amyb

I'm sort of surprised that leading up the Olys the British government didn't take the opportunity to return them while all eyes were turned toward Greece. Would've been good PR. I read a couple books on the subject after I returned from London in 98. I had been quite disturbed at how out of place the marbles looked hanging there, especially since I knew the situation in Greece had changed and they'd be more appropriately housed there. Both books I read indicated that Elgin took them with no real intention of &quot;preservation&quot; but rather just to add to his collection, and given he had debt issues as well, probably to cover those!

111op

I've not read the books you mentioned, amyb, but the Times article seems to paint a slightly different version. You may be interested in taking a look at it.

In any case, I'm not an expert in this area.