That's what I thought PalQ - so perhaps your VAT "rip-off" is just a way of paying that back.

On a separate note I quite like the dual pricing system in some countries - a lower price for locals and a higher price for tourists becuase they can afford it.

PalQ RS probably thinks its okay as long as you pay for your Coke with lunch with TC and wear bright white sneakers!

Many years ago in Copenhagen one of my classmates was in a car wreck while on an outing with our school. She was the only person badly injured and was taken to a local hospital with broken arms and a serious head injury. This teenaged girl was given the best of care for 3 weeks. She was in a coma and could not be moved until she came out of it. Her parents couldn't be located (dad was a very well-known singer on a world tour, mom--well, nevermind) for two weeks, then they decended on the hospital with a retinue that included a doctor. They tried to pay the hospitals and their money was flatly refused. She finally went home after about a month in the hospital, recuperated for a few more months and is now a successful actress.

They would have taken the same care of her had she been a poor girl backpacking through Europe. I will never, ever, forget the kind physicians sitting in the cafeteria with the head of the school, having a beer with him and talking about her prognosis.

Yeah, Wombat, but unlike you, RS gets paid to DO it!

Flanneruk: I've organized bike trips that brought several thousand Americans to Europe for over a decade and each spent a whole lot there - including oodles of VAT - i'm probably more responsible for more VAT taxes than you'll ever pay in your lifetime!

Dukey - Wombat - please, what is RS? National health system? Sincerely.

If you feel you are being ripped off, stay home. The tax isnt hidden from you. Its added in for everyone , not just tourists, so its not sneaky. If you arent informed and dont know you are paying it thats your problem.

RS=Rick Steves - was making comment on PalQ's reference to the other hot thread of the moment

<If you arent informed and dont know you are paying it thats your problem>
try reading what i said before criticizing: "my receipts, which often break down the VAT paid" - i know exactly how much VAT i pay because it's invariably broken down on all receipts - be it BTW, VAT, etc.

I can't see how a tax that is levied on everyone is a tourist rip-off, or do you labor under the delusion that the local citizenry does not pay the VAT? If anything, the VAT is skewed in favor of the tourist, as you can, to some degree, get back the amount you paid when you remove the goods from the country.

A tourist rip-off would be a tax that is levied only on tourist activities, and in the US we frequently levy bed taxes and various airport taxes, which are easy to get the locals to support because we know we, or at least we who don't travel, will not have to pay them.

Actually, there has been some talk of replacing the federal income tax with a federal sales tax, the equivalent of a VAT. It is said to be a way of encouraging savings (putting some of your money in a bank or CD, for those Americans who are apparently unfamiliar with the term) by taxing only consumption, but the talk usually stops when someone points out how high a percentage would be needed, higher, perhaps, than even the European VATs.

I think it is interesting that European medical facilities often don't charge, even for tourists. Apparently they confine their activities to practicing medicine and don't have the huge and expensive bureaucracy we have to process payments and insurance. I'm really hostile about this now, as my wife has come to have two insurance plans, and they have huge staffs that spend their time pointing a finger at each other while declining to pay for services. I spend my days keeping records, refiling claims, initiating appeals, and giving the finger to both of them.

VAT is simply sales tax - and every place has it. I prefer it included in the cost - then you know the total you're paying, versus in the US when you end up paying 8% more for everything once they add it on.

As for the amount - these countries have decided to fund healthcare and education for their citizens - which we do only marginally. Yes- the citizens get the benefit - just as we get the benefit when europeans here pay sales tax.

If you prefer not to pay VAT - dont go to europe.

>Is this true - then why should seniors buy supplemental medical insurance coverage when American elders go to Europe since our Medicare apparently doesn't cover folks in Europe - you are saying that we will get free medical care same as you?

If you would have read my subsequent post you would see that also Europeans DON'T get free health care, at lesast not in most countries. In UK; as well as in Scandinavian countries, they do; then also you, as an American, would get it - at least if you were not able to be transferred. In others, like Germany, France, Switzerland etc., there is NO FREE HEALTH CARE except for the very needy; the citizens HAVE to pay into a special fund/"insurance", which is managed by, on behalf of, or at least with significant interference by the government; since you, as a tourist, don't pay into this system you are not covered by it. (Keeping politicians' greedy fingers out of this pot is another eternal fight around here)

Alta - when you say that citizens have to pay into a special fund - how does that work. For example, two parent family, one parent works, two kids - who has to pay into the fund?

PalQ, having a bad day? I am not used to read such posts of yours. Must be the heat!

Please be fair to Europeans! Example Germany: VAT is 16% (next year 19%), but for food and goods which are essential for living it is 7%. So especially in supermarkets/groceries you are only charged 7% for the most things you buy - and that is pretty similar to the sales/local taxes in the USA, right?

The medical system is almost exclusively financed by employers/employees in Germany (health insurance paid from the income). Not with taxes.

Taxes are spent for many, many things. A big part goes into the welfare system, but also for military, administration costs etc.

You should consider the VAT you pay as a contribution for security (police!), emergency rescue service, the efficiently working public transportation system (yes, a big part of the taxes goes into building new railroads, tunnels, buying buses, railcars etc. and of course roads!) and such.

In a family, the person who earns the money has to pay, the others (kids) don't. Someone with no family has to pay the same amount accourding to his income, so
1) single people pay more
2) families less
3) more income equals higher premiums
for the same medical care.
4) employer pays one half for you
5) self-employed pay full rate, but tax deductable
6) (500-600€/ month are a "normal" rate)

Logos - thanks for the information. If you aren't employed do you still get coverage?

Ingo: your nicely worded reposte has really made me rethink the whole thing. And I wish Fodors had a tool where the OP could UP (Un Post) something that turned out to be not so well thought out - what i thought may provoke some discussion has proved to be universally condemned and your post especially says why i'm wrong. I should learn not to post things that can arise passions and then i get defensive and make retorts to folks i respect that i then regret.
ANYWAY - LET'S END THIS THREAD with my humble retraction of my OP - as they say in French ca y'est i believe.
sincerely, PQ
P.S. I should have learnt my lesson from one post i made about churches charging admission - i was roundly grilled on that too, and rightly as well.
I do like to raise questions for intellectual discussion but not ones and will keep doing so but not ones that make me look like a GRINCH!

Last word - but the collateral discussion of health care this post caused, as in the two above posts by Logos and Wombat are the type of thing that i find interesting and which is one big reason i find Fodors so great - the Europeans who explain things that are not apparent to tourists.

PalQ - thanks for the interesting post. Made me think about how countries fund expenditures - ie income tax, sales tax, tourist visa tax, health tax, property tax, death duties etc.

PalQ, be sure I did not want to "grill" you ;-) I appreciate your many informative and helpful posts. And I admit the VAT might be confusing and annoying at first sight for a tourist.

Back to working on my trip report.

PS: feel free to email me if such questions occur. You have my email, don't you?