Hi all,

My husband and I are planning a trip to Europe for two weeks, probably for the last two weeks in October. Originally, we had been planning to join a tour group in Italy but, for a variety of reasons I won't bore you with, we're leaning away from that idea.

After reading on this forum, we are thinking about getting a couple of Eurail passes and just going wherever we feel like. We'll probably make a basic itinerary but stay fairly flexible most of the time. We're considering maybe flying into somewhere in Germany and spending some time there, then on to Austria for a couple of days, then to Italy (maybe just Venice this time around), and then on to Switzerland.

Our Travel Style:

1. My husband has travelled much more than I but neither of us has ever really done a trip where we didn’t have at least some grasp of the language. My husband studied Italian years ago and may be able to brush up and between us, we speak passable French. Neither of us speaks German but I'm thinking of doing a Rocket German course and, of course, getting a couple of good phrase books.

2. Neither one of us really cares if we spend much time in any of the big cities this time. It's not that we're opposed to cities but we're just as happy seeing beautiful scenery and visiting charming towns and villages. Okay, I admit...I have a thing for castles and cathedrals but I also don't need to see every castle or cathedral in Europe.

3. Down time is okay but we don't tend to go on vacation to rest. We can rest when we get home. ;-)

4. We're in our late thirties/early forties. We don't need luxury accommodations but hostels are not our thing, either. We don't feel the need to be in the heart of night life, either.

5. When we were planning to do a tour, we were looking at around $3,000 USD each plus air fare . If we can do this new trip for less than that, great. But $3,000 each is probably the max. The idea of picnic lunches sounds great.

6. We took a train trip across most of Canada a couple of years ago and loved it. Train travel is not a problem. I've downloaded the guide from the BET site (love that thing!)

Questions:

1.Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions of must-see or must-do things or places?

2.We’re not picky about where we fly into or out of. Does anybody have recommendations along those lines?

3.We understand that trying to visit several countries in two weeks won't give us time to really "do" any of the countries. We don't plan for this to be our last trip to Europe. Still, are we mad to do this? Are there any countries or regions that we should add to or delete from our "wish list"?

4.If we visit small towns (especially in German-speaking areas), will we be able to get by with a phrase book and a rudimentary grasp of the language?

5.Are there any things that we should keep in mind if we’re travelling in late October?

6.It’s possible that we may want to rent a car at some point. Given a reasonable level of skill driving in Canada and the US (Boston, NYC, Toronto, LA, Chicago, etc), are there any countries or areas where we definitely would not want to rent a car. (For instance, we’ve heard horror stories about trying to drive in Rome. Of course, Rome probably won’t happen this time around anyway.)

7. I’m a Canadian citizen travelling under a Canadian passport. My husband is an American citizen travelling under an American passport. Are there any things that we should be aware of since we’ll be travelling with different passports (other than the fact that we’d need to go to different embassies/consulates in the case of an emergency).


Ok. I’ve probably overwhelmed everyone already so I’ll end it here. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Well for the train part i could comment at length, having done literally over 100 different railpass trips - trains are a great way to go - especially if only going to large cities like most tourists - cars are a liability in major cities as wide areas of them are off-limits to private cars, parking is scarce at times and can cost $20-30/day- many hotels in city centres do not offer parking.

So yes the train IMO is the way to go and if involving more than one country and more than a couple of train rides then yes a railpass could be a great thing. For lots of info on planning a European rail trip for novices i always spotlight these info-laden sites - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - download the latter's free and superb IMO European Planning & Rail Guide that has a chapter on each country's rail system, rail maps, suggested itineraries, etc.

Thanks so much, PalenQ. It was actually partially thanks to reading your response to another poster about train travel in Europe that we decided to ditch the whole tour idea and strike out on our own.

We're not really all that interested in the big cities. It's not that we have anything against cities but we kind of like the idea of discovering gems in the countryside. Of course, will that approach make the language piece a bit more of a challenge?

I'll definitely start digging into those sites you mention. I downloaded the BET info a couple of nights ago and I just love it.

You won't need to speak Italian in Venice but you may need to book a hotel ahead if you want to stay inside your budget and still get something nice in that expensive destination.

I think you might want to end your trip in Venice, partly for weather reasons. If you are headed into Switzerland for mountain views and climbs, or Austria, you need to check up on when rain and snow start to dominate. (I don't know). Also, if you put Venice last, you can book without crimping the rest of your care-free style.

To me a train journey sounds romantic, provided you an access the small towns you want without a car, which you may well be able to do in the countries with the best rail lines. Just as a general word of warning; Sometimes guidebook tend to steer you to the most touristy towns, and they can be super-touristy if they have easy train access. And the pictures never show you the mobs of tourists. But sometimes there is a small town a few stops away, with plenty of charm, that simply isn't as famous.

I think you are more likely to get into and stay in a tourist bubble if you approach the trip as being about must-sees or must dos. (Same is true in Canada!) Your railpass will give you a lot of freedom to linger of what you are enjoying and escaping what you don't, so I would just go with that.

I'm unaware of any problem posed by your passports, but I'm unfamiliar with whether Canadians needs visas in countries where Americans don't.

I don't know why you would think you were crazy to do this. It is in some ways much easier to do this in Europe than in North America.

Personally I would not attempt so many countries in 2 weeks. This is even more true when not planning to base in large cities as those are generally easily accessible as opposed to smaller spots. I would concentrate on either Germany and Austria, which make for a wonderful 2 week trip, or Italy and Austria. Switzerland I found to be incredibly expensive and it is not a country I plan to visit again.

If you are looking for cheap flights between countries, www.whichbudget.com is a good resource.

zeppole makes a very good point about the recommendations of guide books as well as web forums like these. The most popular and often recommended spots will be packed with tourists. You will have to do a lot of research to find those spots that are really what you are looking for.

Germany and Austria can be wonderful bargains and in general have superb and easy to use public transport systems. We are headed back for the 6th visit this November. We do enjoy the cities for portions of our trips and find Berlin to be a particularly fascinating destination. We also very much enjoyed Wurzburg and Bamberg, both smaller spots not overrun with tourists.

Austria is a gorgeous country with many smaller villages accessed best by car. We prefer to rely on public transport so it does sometimes limit our options but it is what we prefer. The Salzkammergut is a stunning area with beautiful scenery and lots of small and special places.

As for Italy, I have been 18x times so far. I suspect it will always be my favorite country to visit. I am sure it is combination of my heritage (3 of my grandparents were born there) and my passion for the food, the wine and the overall beauty of the country. I am in the minority as Venice has never wowed me but since it is on your list, you should make it part of your trip.

You might look at visiting the Dolomites if you decide to combine Italy and Austria.

You won't need to speak Italian in Venice but you may need to book a hotel ahead if you want to stay inside your budget and still get something nice in that expensive destination>

ditto to that and if you really need to save money on digs in Venice then by all means consider staying on the Lido - the beach part of Venice on the Adriatic where you can get modern hotels, outside of the hectic summer months - for a fraction of the price of a hotel with lesser amenities in Venice itself.

And though i realize that staying in Venice proper at night is desirable public boats ply to the Lido frequently - well anyway if one has to economize keep the Lido in mind.

I think you can find budget accommodations in Venice -- there are lots of recommendations -- and for an October trip with a train pass, if you can find no way to stay in Venice (and again, I doubt it), stay in a B&B in Mestre, where the train station is.

For people who have never visited Venice before, staying outside the city and commuting in, by boat or bus or train, is usually the worst possible introduction to the city.

Thank you all for the great advice! You've definitely given us some great things to think about.

Just to clarify, our budget is around $6,000 plus whatever we pay for airfare - (that's based on the $3,000 each we would have had to pay if we had chosen to do a tour). I don't know I really made that clear.

So, we won't need Italian if we decide to do Venice. Do you think we'll be able to get by with some basic German and a good phrase book in Germany and Austria?

Thanks so much, once again.

Have been all over Germany, Austrai and Switzerladn several times - from largest cities to tiny towns. I speak about 25 workds of German (greetings, and a couple of basic phrases). Have never had any trouble at all. First, English if the first language taught in school - so most people have a tlest a smattering. Second, English is a germanic language - so even if you don;t know something you can easily intuit it in many cases.

I would do car rather than train - but we often do road trips. Train is better for large cities. Car ismuch better/more convenient for getting off the beaten track and into small villages.

Oh - and I would stick with 2 countries in 2 weeks - unless you want to be moving so fast you forget where you've been. (Tours do everything for you - and keep you sitting on the bus for interminable hours each day - as well as getting up at 7 am - NOT how I spend my vacation - so they can cover much more than most independent travelers can in comfort.)

Can't comment on if Canadians need visas or not for these countries.

One of my best trips ever was the Swiss Rail Pass -- and I especially enjoyed he Lake Steamers. You can use it to go over the border into other countries - and I should have consulted my maps before starting this! One of them I know was Italy - I think Locarno and I do remember the beautiful rail journey getting there. I have truly great memories of both trips I did. One a week - nowhere long enough; the second two weeks and I'd have been happy with four.
I wouldn't spend a second worrying about language. It never seems to be a problem - especially in Germany where they ten to speak better than us.
My favourite town in Germany is Baden Baden. Swabia area is very beautiful. You don't care for cities but I think you might like Stuttgart. And Zurich is beautiful (with a wonderful Lake Steamer. (Swiss Pass - only 2nd class needed and upgrade on the larger steamers - and sit on deck, feet on the rails, watching the glorious scenery pass by while enjoying a glass of wine! Lucky you. Lovely time of the year to travel in Europe.

I also like the idea of two countries in two weeks, basically. I would suggest Germany and Italy for contrast. Fly into Frankfurt and out of Italy? Maybe even make a stop or two in Austria on the way?

You should have no problem meeting your budget if you avoid Rome, Milan, and Florence. They're all fairly expensive and pretty big. You might visit the Italian Alps (near Bolzano) on the way to a stay in Venice.

Here's how I'd cut it up. From Frankfurt, I'd make trip to the Rhine first for 3 nights. See some medieval castles, try the wine, take a river cruise. The weather is usually very nice in October. Take a train outing to Cochem on the nearby Mosel River. Bacharach, Boppard, and St. Goar are good villages to stay in. Boppard has a wine fest from 10/1-3.

Best castle tour on the Rhine: Marksburg - www.marksburg.de

Then head to northern Bavaria for 2 nights - stop in Würzburg on the way and book in medieval Rothenburg.

Munich: 3 nights there. Do a daytrip to the German Alps one day (Garmisch?) and see the Partnach Gorge and/or the Zugspitze (Germany's tallest peak.)

Salzburg: 1 night there is nearly enough if you leave Munich early. It's a short train journey.

Italian Alps: somewhere in or near Bolzano (2 nights)

Venice: 3 nights

Thanks so much, PalenQ. It was actually partially thanks to reading your response to another poster about train travel in Europe that we decided to ditch the whole tour idea and strike out on our own.

We're not really all that interested in the big cities. It's not that we have anything against cities but we kind of like the idea of discovering gems in the countryside. Of course, will that approach make the language piece a bit more of a challenge?

I'll definitely start digging into those sites you mention. I downloaded the BET info a couple of nights ago and I just love it>

thanks for the thanks and i think you will find train travel to be really easy after a bit of homework - there are no language barriers that are insurmountable when traveling by train - lots of universal symbols in stations, etc.

And if looking to mix larger cities with countryside then there is actually a Eurail/Drive Pass where you pick up either a Hertz or AVIS car rental at a train station and can drive thru say the Black Forest in Germany and return the car at another German station then hop the train to say Switzerland - you can do the car rental thing in any country your pass is valid in. Investigate that if wanting to drive around rural areas - like the Mosel Valley, etc.

Please - FINALLY somebody is aware that it is both polite and a clear advantage to learn at least the basics of the language of the country where they are traveling, SO DON'T TRY TO TALK THEM OUT OF THIS, will you? vict4ia - of course it's wise if your husband brushes up his Italian before going to Venice. Italian is, in Venice, not necessary like in "if you don't speak reasonable Italian, you're going to starve". True, you're not going to starve if you only speak English. But you absolutely should stick to your principle of having "at least some grasp of the language". That's great, and I so wish there were more tourists adopting this view. Many tourists perceive Venetians as far less polite and less friendly than other Italians, and you know what? The main reason is Venetians can't stand those tourists any longer who walk in and speak their own language as if they were at home, English, German, French, Russian, Spanish, you name it. Yes, Venetians have very good language skills, and they will understand you, and be able to answer. But they just hate this typical tourist behaviour of not even trying to speak some Italian, and I can attest that most of them are infinitely friendlier with those few (and fewer) tourists who at least try.

I started it. It's my fault.

Franco is right. Learn how to tell the waiter, in Italian, that you would please like a pizza, cappucino and gelato for lunch. It will bring a smile.

I usually start by attempting the language of the area, but 99% of the time, the local people will reply in English. Guess they can detect my Texan southern accent.

I know a funny story about Texans in Venice asking for ice, but Fodor's is a family website. So it is good to learn the Italian word for ice if you want it!

I can imagine. I know the word that Texans "ice" sounds like. And ice also sounds like the German word for hot.

scatcat, the point is not in which language they are going to continue the conversation - if they sense their English might be better than your Italian, it's their way of being polite to continue in English. But the point is, as zeppole said: it will bring a smile. And you will usually be treated better if you started out in Italian.

I think that is right. I have never had anyone to be rude to me. I think it helps if you just greet them in their language. And of course, a smile always helps.

It's the same in every country i've been in - always always learn a few polite words like excuse me and then ask your question in very slow and very well annunciated English - just bark "Do You Speak English" like i've heard so so many Americans do is getting off to a bad start and yes may evoke a rude reply

Learn the few words at least - Pardon me ('pardon' seems to be understand in many countries - Please - Excuse me - thank you - good-bye, etc. To not do so IMO is to be an Ugly American demanding and expecting everyone will speak English straight up